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This room is for supportive and informative discussion about divorce and/or the annulment process. All posters must have been previously divorced or annulled.

Saint Eugene De Mazenod is patron of dysfunctional families & Saint Fabiola obtained a divorce from her first husband prior to devoting her life to charitable works.
Learn More: Saint Eugene De Mazenod and Saint Fabiola

09/14/2012 new
(Quote) Laura-857740 said: (Quote) Jim-872446 said: Again, it gets back to each person's definition of "dating". The ...
(Quote) Laura-857740 said:
Quote:
Jim-872446 said:

Again, it gets back to each person's definition of "dating". The current societal definition nowadays, which includes Catholics to a large degree, implies that there will be some form of sex going on, at least after a certain point, wherever that point is. Of course, until annulment and re-marriage in the Church, that is to be out of the question. This of course, brings up the issue of where do you draw the line? This is where it can get tricky, and why it's wise to play it conservatively (non-political with a small "c"). Otherwise, each couple is forced to define what is "actual sex" or not, and so forth. Not that that can't be done, but you you can see the pitfalls, and after all we are all still regular people with hormones (however much are left ).
Hopefully, priests who approve dating in these situations are assuming or hoping that the dating is chaste, but it certainly can be problematic, if not dangerous territory.

It's kind of like starting a new serious relationship the day after the divorce. Is that really a good idea? We all need time to adjust, heal, renew, etc.
Of course, each situation has its own unique flavor based on how long ago the divorce was, are there current relationships, is an annulment started or planned, or in progress. The permutations can be many, but each person definitely needs some amount of time to go thru all the stages of grief and healing. The annulment and its healing and freedom is the part of the culmination of that process, which is why the Church in her wisdom requires it. It can be a little like confession, most of us really don't enjoy it or look forward to fessing up to our sins to another person, priest or no. But it always is a feeling of real relief and healing afterwards - hard but necessary.


Hi Jim. Thanks for your input. I divorced 7 years ago. My self esteem was actually heightened after the divorce because I remained faithfull despite horrific life changing issues going on. I became completely healed five years father and told my ex that I forgave him for his adultery. I bagman dating after that and have been with some wonderful people, but not enough to consider marriage. I started the annullment process and handed in the paperwork for a desire to marry in the church someday. I received no further revelations or healing while filling out the paperwork. The only thing I received from it was the fact that I was actually fully healed already. Now I am just broke.
--hide--
Ok "began". ....not bagman.....geez....it must be late!
09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Jim-872446 said: Again, it gets back to each person's definition of "dating". The current societal def...
(Quote) Jim-872446 said:

Again, it gets back to each person's definition of "dating". The current societal definition nowadays, which includes Catholics to a large degree, implies that there will be some form of sex going on, at least after a certain point, wherever that point is. Of course, until annulment and re-marriage in the Church, that is to be out of the question. This of course, brings up the issue of where do you draw the line? This is where it can get tricky, and why it's wise to play it conservatively (non-political with a small "c"). Otherwise, each couple is forced to define what is "actual sex" or not, and so forth. Not that that can't be done, but you you can see the pitfalls, and after all we are all still regular people with hormones (however much are left ).
Hopefully, priests who approve dating in these situations are assuming or hoping that the dating is chaste, but it certainly can be problematic, if not dangerous territory.

It's kind of like starting a new serious relationship the day after the divorce. Is that really a good idea? We all need time to adjust, heal, renew, etc.
Of course, each situation has its own unique flavor based on how long ago the divorce was, are there current relationships, is an annulment started or planned, or in progress. The permutations can be many, but each person definitely needs some amount of time to go thru all the stages of grief and healing. The annulment and its healing and freedom is the part of the culmination of that process, which is why the Church in her wisdom requires it. It can be a little like confession, most of us really don't enjoy it or look forward to fessing up to our sins to another person, priest or no. But it always is a feeling of real relief and healing afterwards - hard but necessary.

--hide--
Jim, you have a good point. In my case, none of what I have written involved sex. I was simply talking about seeking company with the other gender with the intention of getting involved romantically, even if it is not actualized in the end.

Matt 5:27-28
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who
looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Kathleen

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Laura-857740 said: Thank you, Kathleen. See it seems prudence would also say you can date because you are not married anymo...
(Quote) Laura-857740 said: Thank you, Kathleen. See it seems prudence would also say you can date because you are not married anymore. I'm I married or not? Married allows for sex, no marriage does not. Just saying.
--hide--
Yea, I can see your confusion, but this one is easily cleared up.

You said: "...it seems prudence would also say you can date because you are not married anymore." [emphasis is mine]

You are still married in the eyes of the Church, so that last part is wrong and that makes the first part wrong too.

Kathleen

09/14/2012 new
(Quote) Kathleen-878558 said: (Quote) Laura-857740 said: Thank you, Kathleen. See it seems prudence would also say you can...
(Quote) Kathleen-878558 said:

Quote:
Laura-857740 said: Thank you, Kathleen. See it seems prudence would also say you can date because you are not married anymore. I'm I married or not? Married allows for sex, no marriage does not. Just saying.

Yea, I can see your confusion, but this one is easily cleared up.

You said: "...it seems prudence would also say you can date because you are not married anymore." [emphasis is mine]

You are still married in the eyes of the Church, so that last part is wrong and that makes the first part wrong too.

Kathleen

--hide--
But if I am married, then I can have sex, sex is only allowed in marriage.
09/14/2012 new
(Quote) Kathleen-878558 said: (Quote) Jim-872446 said: Again, it gets back to each person's definition of "...
(Quote) Kathleen-878558 said:

Quote:
Jim-872446 said:

Again, it gets back to each person's definition of "dating". The current societal definition nowadays, which includes Catholics to a large degree, implies that there will be some form of sex going on, at least after a certain point, wherever that point is. Of course, until annulment and re-marriage in the Church, that is to be out of the question. This of course, brings up the issue of where do you draw the line? This is where it can get tricky, and why it's wise to play it conservatively (non-political with a small "c"). Otherwise, each couple is forced to define what is "actual sex" or not, and so forth. Not that that can't be done, but you you can see the pitfalls, and after all we are all still regular people with hormones (however much are left ).
Hopefully, priests who approve dating in these situations are assuming or hoping that the dating is chaste, but it certainly can be problematic, if not dangerous territory.

It's kind of like starting a new serious relationship the day after the divorce. Is that really a good idea? We all need time to adjust, heal, renew, etc.
Of course, each situation has its own unique flavor based on how long ago the divorce was, are there current relationships, is an annulment started or planned, or in progress. The permutations can be many, but each person definitely needs some amount of time to go thru all the stages of grief and healing. The annulment and its healing and freedom is the part of the culmination of that process, which is why the Church in her wisdom requires it. It can be a little like confession, most of us really don't enjoy it or look forward to fessing up to our sins to another person, priest or no. But it always is a feeling of real relief and healing afterwards - hard but necessary.


Jim, you have a good point. In my case, none of what I have written involved sex. I was simply talking about seeking company with the other gender with the intention of getting involved romantically, even if it is not actualized in the end.

Matt 5:27-28
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who
looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Kathleen

--hide--
I am soon glad you used this quote. It is among my favorites. So...if a man or woman looks at the other gender with some desire...it's adultery. I don't have one male friend who believes this.
09/14/2012 new
(Quote) Laura-857740 said: I am soon glad you used this quote. It is among my favorites. So...if a man or woman looks at the other gender ...
(Quote) Laura-857740 said: I am soon glad you used this quote. It is among my favorites. So...if a man or woman looks at the other gender with some desire...it's adultery. I don't have one male friend who believes this.
--hide--


That may be true, but doesn't change the fact. Scripture says it is adultery, thus it is so. I confess lust for this exact reason.
09/14/2012 new
(Quote) Edward-512961 said: (Quote) Laura-857740 said: I am soon glad you used this quote. It is among my favorites. So...if a man o...
(Quote) Edward-512961 said:
Quote:
Laura-857740 said: I am soon glad you used this quote. It is among my favorites. So...if a man or woman looks at the other gender with some desire...it's adultery. I don't have one male friend who believes this.



That may be true, but doesn't change the fact. Scripture says it is adultery, thus it is so. I confess lust for this exact reason.
--hide--
Hi Ed. I was wondering how men look at that subject. If you know just looking at someone with lust is adultery, do men try hard to stop looking around at women that way, or do they just keep doing it and repeatedly confess the sin? Would like your input on how some men may view this scripture passage. Thanks, Laurie.
09/14/2012 new
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: I would honestly like to know why men (and women) who are on here for the purpose of dating have not at leas...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:

I would honestly like to know why men (and women) who are on here for the purpose of dating have not at least started their annullments. I've had 2 gentlemen (age/education/etc. appropriate) who are obviously interested (one wanting to meet after messages/phone calls), but who have not started their annullment and don't plan to in the near future. I don't know if the same holds true for divorced women on here. But, I just don't understand why someone who is divorced and wants to date and get into relationship with someone will not start their annullment process. (I had a similar situation with a gentleman in 2005-06 and it ended in heartbreak because there is no ultimate future for the relationship unless one wants to marry outside of the Church - which as a devout Catholic is totally out of the question for me).

So, please answer the question if you would, as to why not start the annullment if you want to date/etc.? (I'm not talking about those divorced persons who clearly state in their profile that they are looking only for friendship.)

--hide--


I broke up[ with the last person I dated, and I have decided not to date anyone in the future who does not have an annulment and is not immediately available for sacramental marriage. Here is what happened.

I went on a few dates with her in 1997, and we became friends, but not especially close friends. We were the same age and had many friends in common in the same city. At the time I did not have my annulment either, but I was working on it. I got my annulment in 1998.

In early 2012, I saw her out at a local function in which I was attending alone (which I hate doing), and she actually sat closer to me than she did to the guy that brought her there; we were all at the same table. Afterward, we started talking through Facebook and wound up planning to go on a date. On the very first date, we started to discuss things, and I rediscovered that she did not and was not planning to get an annulment. I told her that this would be a deal breaker for me, and that we would not be able to date, and I would never be able to marry her. In the course of the conversation, she agreed to get the annulment, but here were her initial reasons against it.

1) Her son would be considered illegitimate. (False, but a common misconception)

2) She did not want to have to involve the ex-husband, even so little as to leave the decision of the annulment to the justice and jurisdiction of the tribunal.

3) I don't want to think about all of that stuff; it was 20 years ago.

Those were the only arguments she made against it, and she initially agreed to get the annulment. But when I got her the telephone number of the person to speak with at the diocese about starting to actually do it, she changed her mind again. So I told her that without an annulment, we were wasting our time, and I stopped seeing her, though she has made repeated attempts to get me to date her again, I continue to refuse, and will continue to refuse for more than just the annulment.

These reasons that she has given are an indication to me of a couple of things that are not healthy. Thinking that your son will be considered illegitimate if you got an annulment shows ignorance, but once presented with the facts about the children of a divorced and annulled family, to continue in that misguided belief is simply stupid and willfully ignorant. How can I respect that? And to not want to have any conversation of any kind with the ex-husband, after 20 years of divorce for even so important a reason is this shows a lack of maturity, and for the same reasons that she got a divorce the first time, she could wind up there again. I can understand not wanting to face all the pain necessary to write all that the Church asks us to reflect on and write about, after all, it was difficult for me to do it as well, but I did it while the marriage was still fresh in my mind, and I used it as part of the healing process, which she has not and will not ever get the benefit of. I could never date her again, and I resolved to never date anyone that does not have an annulment already and is not available for sacramental marriage in the RCC.

What I have come to realize is that some people do not care about their Catholicity. Being Catholic, attending mass, receiving the sacraments are not important to them, and therefore, moving through life without an annulment is not any more necessary to them than receiving the sacraments. These are the people who reason that they are a good person, they don't hurt people or break the commandments (in their mind), so they believe that they are going to heaven the way they are living. Jesus said, unless you eat my flesh you have no life in you. Now, you can live your whole life alone in a chaste way and never get an annulment, and still go to heaven. But if you ever expect to get married in the church, or to marry a good Catholic in the church, then you must get an annulment. If you are here on this site looking for a good Catholic to marry you or date you and your previous marriage was not annulled, then I consider you to still be married in the eyes of the Church, and therefore in the eyes of God (what you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven).

My searches no longer include "Divorced" because of my experience with this local person. For the reasons I have stated, many of us have come to CM to find someone who truly wants to live their Catholic faith and wants to help each other get to Heaven as devout Roman Catholics. We have tried dating people we know, and they are not always the best examples of Catholics or fall short of the basic requirement of being available for sacramental marriage. The sad part is that once you get past that part, the basic requirement, there are still all the other factors that either make you attracted to someone or not. It is difficult to be in our situation because we have so many things that need to line up in order for it to work. It is like finding the needle in the haystack only to discover that you have still not found the right needle; try another hay stack. If you find that special person, you are truly blessed.
09/14/2012 new

My parish priest said one time during a talk about annulments, that divorce is one of the main reasons that people fall away from the church.. At least I was lucky in that I knew from the beginning that I had excellent grounds and I knew what the 'rules' were re: my children's status etc.. Even though it took me 21 years to get the annulment.. I think that one thing people fail to realize is that the longer you wait the harder it is to find witnesses that remember the details of your courtship.. That was the main challenge in my annulment.. My witnesses were weak.. So I had to get a 4th witness, a family member that gave a profound testimony that brought me to tears when I read it.

09/14/2012 new

I have started the annulment process. I have an entire thread about dragging my feet. It is said we make the best choices we have with the information that we have at the time. My mistake was in not discerning that I was marrying a man who would abuse me. I was so ashamed at the behavior I allowed for several years, and my own error in judgment, that there was no way I could even approach God for forgiveness, much less start talking to a person about all those questions. I would hazard to say that there are more cases of a similar nature. heart

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