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This room is for supportive and informative discussion about divorce and/or the annulment process. All posters must have been previously divorced or annulled.

Saint Eugene De Mazenod is patron of dysfunctional families & Saint Fabiola obtained a divorce from her first husband prior to devoting her life to charitable works.
Learn More: Saint Eugene De Mazenod and Saint Fabiola

09/14/2012 new

I started my annulment process as soon as I was able to get the divorce decree DEMAND by the Church. Why - don't like loose ends. What an education and I have a post-doctoral degree in Taxation - that is esoteric but NOT as esoteric as Canon Law! Oh, the Canon 1095.2 didn't even exist when I was married - pray tell, do they make things up?

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Jim-624621 said: (Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: I agree with you about everything except th...
(Quote) Jim-624621 said:
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Cheryl-409772 said:




I agree with you about everything except that if a person doesn't wish to speak to the ex after 20 years it makes them "immature"...you have no idea what might have happened in that marriage...she could have been beaten and raped for all you know. It could cause her to have post tramautic stress or to be manipulated back into feeling sorry for him (a technique abusers use) or just anything...I don't know what her circumstances are but I know there can be plenty and would not judge her on this. Forgiveness has nothing to do with communicating either...one you have to do eventually, the other you don't.




Beaten and raped? Ha! It is nothing like that, and yes I do know because we had these discussions. It is something else. I heard her say more than once that her ex-husband's wife is living her life. He is remarried (without annulment, and he obviously doesn't care), he makes a lot of money (he has a new house in Panama and a house in Destin), and she is simply envious. They talk all the time about other things, but is not willing to rock the boat and cause a rift between her and her son over this. I will use Church language here. Her relationship with her ex is disordered because she will not confront him on this matter either to educate or even simply discuss it, but will discuss other things of much lesser importance with him. She was never abused. All of that is just supposition on your part.

I also saw that I wasn't going to allow her 21-year old son to dictate the terms of my own life, as would have been the case, as I could see that she was doing in her own life. It is easier simply not to get involved with people who are not eligible for sacramental marriage to avoid the pain that it causes.
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I wasn't making a "supposition" about the abuse as I said we don't know what might have happened in her 'marriage"....what I was makind a supposition on is that you didn't know cause she didn't tell you....glad to hear it was nothing like that...unless she really hasn't told you, perhaps you are right and it is envy. Either way, you are right about it being more sound judgement not to get involved with someone you can't marry in the end.

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Stephen-725391 said: (Quote) In my case the ex did only Separation not a divorce to hold me hostage - Church wouldn't d...
(Quote) Stephen-725391 said: [quote]In my case the ex did only Separation not a divorce to hold me hostage - Church wouldn't do anything!
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They couldn't do anything. You were not civilly divorced and that is a prerequisite for an annulment. On the other hand, you could do something, like file for a divorce and make that happen.

Kathleen

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Steve-174204 said: Hi. I think that a lot of them really don't want to get married again so this is t...
(Quote) Steve-174204 said:

Hi.


I think that a lot of them really don't want to get married again so this is the card they can play if things get serious. When I got divorced I immediately got my anullment going. If getting remarried in the Catholic Church is important then ditch these dudes and find someone who really wants to get married. Make sure there actions are consistent with there words. If a guy or girl really wants to get remarried as a Catholic then they would have acted accordingly.


Steve

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Hi Steve, to use your language, I have "ditched these dudes"! It's just so disappointing when I run into someone on here who seems like a good match for me, but they haven't even started the annulment process. If their profile states divorced I will still look at them since some of these people are in process of getting the annulment or even have it but haven't changed their status, but I will no longer exchange emails or talk by phone (let alone meet) someone who hasn't at the very minimum gotten their annulment underway (with good prospects for obtaining it). I agree with you that these men aren't really serious about getting remarried or aren't ready yet (which is the same thing in my eyes). It's good to hear this opinion from a guy's point of view!

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Stephen-725391 said: Think about a marriage ended after 35 years by an order of separation and converted to...
(Quote) Stephen-725391 said:

Think about a marriage ended after 35 years by an order of separation and converted to Divorce 3 years later where the Church wouldn't do anything BECAUSE it wasn't a DIVORCE. Then the representation of the Tribunal that just go along with us and you'll get the Decree of Nullity from us. Sheesh! I called them (letter to Presiding Judge calling them on their misrepresentation tantamount to FRAUD) - Silence for 3 months then I get this notice that it's going to Judgment. Based on the Presiding Judge's telling me months before that I had no proof but make something up, He already had made up his mind and I wasn't going to get the annulment. Sheesh. In the meantime my lay advocate at the Rarish dumped me. I had no one and no money to hire a firm of canon lawyers to represent me in the Tribunal. I call the Tribunal. Who calls me back? One of the Tribunal judges - A Dominican Nun who IS a Canon Lawyer, a Tribunal judge and Tribunal auditor. She informs me that SHE is now my advocate, that the presiding judge (the one I called on the carpet) recused himself from my case and GUESS WHO took his place as presiding judge on my case - the Archdiocese Judical Vicar - the guy who is advising Sartain on controlling the Nuns here in the U.S. and who is fight the Gay Marriage law on the ballot. I must have REALLY touch a nerve up there. Now a NOBODY has got a really canon lawyer and the head legal guy for the Archdiocese handling his case. They are either going to "DO" me (deny the annulment) or "GRANT" the annulment - so as an academic exercise can what they do REALLY be trusted? Lucky for me, I was thinking and acting and got my military records which REFLECT my grave lack of Judgment (Canon 1095.2) during the same period of time as my wedding - The conclusion of the military as to my abilities to make decsretionary judgments - I was NOT capable of being EVEN a PRIVATE! Never thought I would ever want to see those records again. Still haven't (lack of funds to travel to Seattle) met with my Canon Lawyer - but soon God Willing.

--hide--

Stephen.. In my annulment I took much of the responsibility for the failure of the marriage on my self.. Raised in an alcoholic home.. Married at 20 and too immature to have made such a lifelong decision. Sometimes we have to own up and be honest about our own role.. Funny this was, in the end they asked for two more witnesses that know me well as an adult (now) who were asked to testify to my honesty about myself..

09/14/2012 new

Excellent point Donna, and I think one that many people miss when they are filling out the paperwork. There is absolutely no way the demise of a marriage is completely due to one person. The second person always has a hand in it, even if the fault is lack of discernment. I am guilty of the same and have no problems saying so. smile heart

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Kathleen-878558 said: They couldn't do anything. You were not civilly divorced and that is a prerequisite for an...
(Quote) Kathleen-878558 said:

They couldn't do anything. You were not civilly divorced and that is a prerequisite for an annulment. On the other hand, you could do something, like file for a divorce and make that happen.

Kathleen

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The words of Our Lord out of the Bible - NO DIVORCE! The requirement is BOGUS. I am a Lawyer and know something about jurisdiction and IMHO the requirement by the Church to have a DIVORCE prior to allowing a petition to determine the validity of the marriage VOID their JURISDICTION. You know what that means - NO DECREES of NULLITY issued under DIVORCE first are VALID. Think about that!

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Stephen-725391 said: (Quote) Kathleen-878558 said: They couldn't do anything. You were no...
(Quote) Stephen-725391 said:

Quote:
Kathleen-878558 said:

They couldn't do anything. You were not civilly divorced and that is a prerequisite for an annulment. On the other hand, you could do something, like file for a divorce and make that happen.

Kathleen


The words of Our Lord out of the Bible - NO DIVORCE! The requirement is BOGUS. I am a Lawyer and know something about jurisdiction and IMHO the requirement by the Church to have a DIVORCE prior to allowing a petition to determine the validity of the marriage VOID their JURISDICTION. You know what that means - NO DECREES of NULLITY issued under DIVORCE first are VALID. Think about that!

--hide--
Divorce is part of the process that shows that most likely there will be no reconciliation, which of course is part of what they need to know. I am not an authority on this, but to me that seems like common sense. I certainly wouldn't consider marrying someone who got an annullment but no divorce either....for legal reasons and since part of the reason for an annullment is to be able to marry in the church that also makes sense as to why it is necessary before hand. Also, you can't just quote the Bible because the church takes it in context along with teachings and tradition. I'm pretty sure at the time there was a problem with men just ditching their wives whenever they felt like it, and Jesus wanted them to be faithful to their wives...again, not an authority but it makes sense.

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: (Quote) Jim-624621 said: (Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: ...
(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said:

Quote:
Jim-624621 said:
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Cheryl-409772 said:




I agree with you about everything except that if a person doesn't wish to speak to the ex after 20 years it makes them "immature"...you have no idea what might have happened in that marriage...she could have been beaten and raped for all you know. It could cause her to have post tramautic stress or to be manipulated back into feeling sorry for him (a technique abusers use) or just anything...I don't know what her circumstances are but I know there can be plenty and would not judge her on this. Forgiveness has nothing to do with communicating either...one you have to do eventually, the other you don't.




Beaten and raped? Ha! It is nothing like that, and yes I do know because we had these discussions. It is something else. I heard her say more than once that her ex-husband's wife is living her life. He is remarried (without annulment, and he obviously doesn't care), he makes a lot of money (he has a new house in Panama and a house in Destin), and she is simply envious. They talk all the time about other things, but is not willing to rock the boat and cause a rift between her and her son over this. I will use Church language here. Her relationship with her ex is disordered because she will not confront him on this matter either to educate or even simply discuss it, but will discuss other things of much lesser importance with him. She was never abused. All of that is just supposition on your part.

I also saw that I wasn't going to allow her 21-year old son to dictate the terms of my own life, as would have been the case, as I could see that she was doing in her own life. It is easier simply not to get involved with people who are not eligible for sacramental marriage to avoid the pain that it causes.




I wasn't making a "supposition" about the abuse as I said we don't know what might have happened in her 'marriage"....what I was makind a supposition on is that you didn't know cause she didn't tell you....glad to hear it was nothing like that...unless she really hasn't told you, perhaps you are right and it is envy. Either way, you are right about it being more sound judgement not to get involved with someone you can't marry in the end.

--hide--
...although I agree that while not getting involved due to her not having an annullment and not being able to marry legally is probably for the best, I also reiterate, hurt is hurt and unless you walk in someone else's shoes, I don't think I'd judge someone's pain and call it immature.

09/14/2012 new

(Quote) Stephen-725391 said: (Quote) Laura-857740 said: (Quote) Cindy-534370 said:
(Quote) Stephen-725391 said:

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Laura-857740 said:
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Cindy-534370 said:

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Donna-83441 said:

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Laura-857740 said: Hi Kathleen, thanks for your input. My priest stated it was ok to date as long as there is no possible way for my ex husband and I to get back together. That way the person i am dating is not standing between my ex and I and effecting the chance of reconciliation from occurring. Due to the horrific events that caused my marriage to end, I told him I would never return to my ex, he did the most hidious things a human being can do to another. Therefore, he said ok to dating. And yet I filled out annulment papers ONLY so that I may be married in the church again, not because I was concerned about adultery. My priest and the rest of the priests in my parish are excellent people. They all give an ok to dating with the stipulation that their can be no reconciliation possible. I do have the question out there and wondered...if people are have a civil law divorce, but no annulment...then they can continue having casual sex with no emotional attachment to the person, because through cannon law...they are still married.? That argument seems to stand true if I am still married according to the church.

I think the technicality is that there is nothing that directly says you may not date.. It says you may not marry in the Church without an annulment.. So many priests will say it is okay to date with the understanding that you cannot get married in the Church without a finalized annulment. The other thing to keep in mind is that in a lot of ways the most Conservative Catholics are drawn to CM because they see it as the best way to find a Catholic spouse and I've seen it written that the Forums draws out the most Conservative of them.. People who don't care quickly get bored with the conservativeism and go find a spouse on POF or Match..


Hi Donna, your comment is what I have heard from many, that there is nothing directly stating you cannot date. I guess that leaves it all to each their own.




No really you cannot date, you are only permitted to have a casual date, anything serious or beyond that is not permitted.


If this argument was true, then that means the church has no problem with me having sex with my ex because we are " still married". Even though I'm legally divorced. It's the same side of your argument, not the opposite side. I do not plan on marrying until my son's future is made clearer to me. I'm thinking it will be a long time. If many priests are ok with us dating, I have a harder time that lay people could judge others for dating. Who among us is to say your going to hell, I believe in mercy and truly believe Jesus will forgive us, adulterous or not. My ex committed adultery while married, but I believe Jesus will save him from hell. And I hope the same for him because I hold no ill will over his act. That's practicing faith...if people don't want to get their marriage annulled, and not marry in the catholic church if they marry again, then I wish them the best. I will not judge them and say your going to hell committing adultery.

Laura, RIGHT ON! Besides, when the Church grants the annulment, does that say those years you were 'fornicating'?

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Again, this argument does not really make sense because you thought you were married. As soon as it hit you that this was no marriage and you got a divorce the intimacy should have ended.

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