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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Sep 14th 2012 new
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Hi Jacqui,So many good points you bring up here. I have gone to St. Annes, and the old Mass in...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Hi Jacqui,

So many good points you bring up here. I have gone to St. Annes, and the old Mass in the cenetary, more than several times, and have loved it. One time, I think it was Christmas 2008, they did a sung vespers and then did a Christmas Mass with Bishop Cordiloeone, and it was one of the most beautiful experiences one could imagine.

These days, I gpo to picnic Mass 3 weeks a month, but tend to go to the Latin version of the Novus ordo Mass once a month at Our Lady of the Rosary. It is the Mass the way the Pope says it (almost), with the common parts in Latin and the readings and Prayers of the faithful in the vernacular, both just as Vatin II intended. The choir is wonderful, singing chant, polyphony and hymns in 4 part harmony. Never a juvenile picnic song there! The priests have been very good, and they are learning the Latin more fluently. I've also attended a Mass for a Bishop there, with Bishop Cordiloeoni again celebrating. This community used to have pizza and wine in the park jusgt after Sunday Mass, which I thought was the greatest idea since sliced bread. Later, when kicked out of the park, they met in the parish hall, with lots of food, wine, and kids running about. Thjen, I guess the parish didn't want them their so now people just chat for a few minutes on the steps and then go home...just like in picnic parishes: community not as evident. But, what I am learning is that tight bonds have already been built between some of the rgulars from the days of the wine and pizza, and they do things together. If you or anyone is interested, mass is second Sunday each month at OLR in Little Italy, San Diego.

Regarding children, I love them and welcome them, but I do not understand modern parents who refuse to teach schoolage kids how to behave. The problems is the parents, not the kids. Kids should always be welcome, but by the time you are 5 you should know how to act in public. And Mass is public. If you don't, your parents have failed you. Recently, at a picnic parish, I whispered to a schoolage kid in froont of me who refused to stand for the Gospel, "Son, stand up for the Gospel." The mother, whose kids were slouching down with their feet on the pew, reaching their games, gave me a shocked look that said mind your own business. I asked her if the boy could stand (thinking maybe he were handicapoped). She glared at me with a look that would freeze lava, and said yes. I thought I may have overdone it, but later, at the "peace be with you" (she refused to even look at me) the elderly folks behind me gave me a great big grin, so I guess they saw it (or maybe they're just happy). I shook the boy's hand and gently said Peace be with you young man. Someone needs to tell him he is a young man, not an animal. We need to encourage good behavior in the kids around us, I think, because teachers and parents certainly aren't.

Same goes for people who let their dogs bark and bite. Terrible. I was on a yacht over labor day and someone let their putrid little lap dog bite another boat owner, ripping up his finger. No consequences for the dog at all. Poor little dog, bit a man, poor thing! I would have poundded the living daylights out of that dog so he would think twice before ever doing that again. Have we no sense of being an adult, a parent, an animal owner? Are we all perpetual children stuck in endless summer? Are we afraid to act over 30 since the 60s generation never trusted anyone over 30?

--hide--


I didn't know about the OLR Latin mass. Will have to look that one up. Now and then I would stop in on Holy Days for mass when I worked downtown, as the parish was within walking distance.

No problem about the typing; I can read through typos.

I was going to write about how when I was at a particular San Diego parish one Sunday, and I had my Mom with me. We had stayed after mass a bit to view the beautiful artwork in the parish. Mom is a non-professional artist, and has been studying art history for the past 30 years or so----though she doesn't like it when I tell people that, as she doesn't think that she is good enough to be called an artist. Well, anyway, as we were walking toward a painting, we noticed that a lady was letting her little baby touch the actual paint on one of those beautiful paintings-----my Mom and I gasped!

The pastor there noticed our reaction, and looked back to see what was happening, and he shrugged it off.

I was thinking that people need to take better control of their kids' behavior during mass and while in a church. I'll bet the parishioners who donated the painting did not expect that anyone would let their children touch the painting, and possibly ruin it.

My Mom had us "whipped" as far as behavior during mass-----no giggles...not a sound unless it was prayer or singing with everyone else. My how things have certainly changed.
Sep 14th 2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Some are. I have seen this.I love Traditional things, Latin, sacredness, formali...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Some are. I have seen this.

I love Traditional things, Latin, sacredness, formality, etc. I also love beautiful music, as opposed to the church picnic music we usually get at modern Mass. So, I have gravitated to the Tridentine Mass from time to time.

However, I have a close friend whom I introdiuced to it. He became more and more involved, to where his kids serve Mass, know the Latin and what it means, and are fully integrated into the community.

In the process, my friend has become mean, arrogant, fundamentalist, threatening, and rigid to the point where he will not allow me to even discuss evolution with his sons, one of whom wants to become a scientist.

I have watched the transformation of my friend since his involvement with the Tridentine community, and I've decided that if that is what happens to a person, I do not want any part of it. Jesus said you can judge a tree by its fruit. My friend has shown me that although he has the rules and the rubrics down cold, he does not understand a word of the message of Christ.

Christ's main purpose was not to bring a perfect Mass that we could celebrate in the language of the Roman conquerors, a language he did not even speak. He came to show us Divine Love. The Mass was a gift he gave us, in Hebrew and Aramaic, to strengthen our bond to him and to each other. The Church morphed it to Greek so everyone would understand it. Latin came 3 or 5 hundred years later. But, in any language, it is not about the Mass, it is about Christ's message, his love, and our need to show that love in our daily lives. If your parish doesn't have that, it doesn't matter whether you have church picnic music or Gregorian Chant; doesn't matter whether you are Tridentine or Novus Ordo, you have missed the boat.

My opinion. Sorry if I've offended.

--hide--
Your situation reminds me of the words of Jesus, Who said He was more concerned with keeping the spirit of the law, not always the letter of the law. They can differ.

Sep 14th 2012 new
(Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Some are. I have seen this.I love Trad...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Gerald-283546 said:





Some are. I have seen this.

I love Traditional things, Latin, sacredness, formality, etc. I also love beautiful music, as opposed to the church picnic music we usually get at modern Mass. So, I have gravitated to the Tridentine Mass from time to time.

However, I have a close friend whom I introdiuced to it. He became more and more involved, to where his kids serve Mass, know the Latin and what it means, and are fully integrated into the community.

In the process, my friend has become mean, arrogant, fundamentalist, threatening, and rigid to the point where he will not allow me to even discuss evolution with his sons, one of whom wants to become a scientist.

I have watched the transformation of my friend since his involvement with the Tridentine community, and I've decided that if that is what happens to a person, I do not want any part of it. Jesus said you can judge a tree by its fruit. My friend has shown me that although he has the rules and the rubrics down cold, he does not understand a word of the message of Christ.

Christ's main purpose was not to bring a perfect Mass that we could celebrate in the language of the Roman conquerors, a language he did not even speak. He came to show us Divine Love. The Mass was a gift he gave us, in Hebrew and Aramaic, to strengthen our bond to him and to each other. The Church morphed it to Greek so everyone would understand it. Latin came 3 or 5 hundred years later. But, in any language, it is not about the Mass, it is about Christ's message, his love, and our need to show that love in our daily lives. If your parish doesn't have that, it doesn't matter whether you have church picnic music or Gregorian Chant; doesn't matter whether you are Tridentine or Novus Ordo, you have missed the boat.

My opinion. Sorry if I've offended.




Your situation reminds me of the words of Jesus, Who said He was more concerned with keeping the spirit of the law, not always the letter of the law. They can differ.

--hide--


This can be confusing, just what is the letter of the spirit and the letter of the law?
Sep 14th 2012 new

(Quote) Cindy-534370 said: This can be confusing, just what is the letter of the spirit and the letter of the law?
(Quote) Cindy-534370 said:

This can be confusing, just what is the letter of the spirit and the letter of the law?
--hide--
Gotta back up the bus first, Cindy.

It's the "letter of the law" versus the "spirit of the law" -- a concept that is Biblical in nature. Obeying the literal interpretation of the words, but not the intent of those who wrote the law would fall into the "letter of the law" category. Conversely, obeying the spirit of the law would be acting in accordance with the true intentions of tha law.

Jesus corrected the Pharisees in this respect, noting that they had placed the letter of the law above the spirit of the law. It was their patting themselves on the back for obeying a strict, literal interpretation (as opposed to acting in a manner pleasing to the Lord) that got them into trouble.

Helpful???

Sep 14th 2012 new
(Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Cindy-534370 said: This can be confusing, just what is the letter of the spirit a...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Cindy-534370 said:

This can be confusing, just what is the letter of the spirit and the letter of the law?

Gotta back up the bus first, Cindy.



It's the "letter of the law" versus the "spirit of the law" -- a concept that is Biblical in nature. Obeying the literal interpretation of the words, but not the intent of those who wrote the law would fall into the "letter of the law" category. Conversely, obeying the spirit of the law would be acting in accordance with the true intentions of tha law.



Jesus corrected the Pharisees in this respect, noting that they had placed the letter of the law above the spirit of the law. It was their patting themselves on the back for obeying a strict, literal interpretation (as opposed to acting in a manner pleasing to the Lord) that got them into trouble.



Helpful???

--hide--


Hmmm...what kind of trouble?

Thanks Ray, it is helpful.
Sep 16th 2012 new

(Quote) Cindy-534370 said: (Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Gerald-283546 said: <...
(Quote) Cindy-534370 said:
Quote:
Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Gerald-283546 said:





Some are. I have seen this.

I love Traditional things, Latin, sacredness, formality, etc. I also love beautiful music, as opposed to the church picnic music we usually get at modern Mass. So, I have gravitated to the Tridentine Mass from time to time.

However, I have a close friend whom I introdiuced to it. He became more and more involved, to where his kids serve Mass, know the Latin and what it means, and are fully integrated into the community.

In the process, my friend has become mean, arrogant, fundamentalist, threatening, and rigid to the point where he will not allow me to even discuss evolution with his sons, one of whom wants to become a scientist.

I have watched the transformation of my friend since his involvement with the Tridentine community, and I've decided that if that is what happens to a person, I do not want any part of it. Jesus said you can judge a tree by its fruit. My friend has shown me that although he has the rules and the rubrics down cold, he does not understand a word of the message of Christ.

Christ's main purpose was not to bring a perfect Mass that we could celebrate in the language of the Roman conquerors, a language he did not even speak. He came to show us Divine Love. The Mass was a gift he gave us, in Hebrew and Aramaic, to strengthen our bond to him and to each other. The Church morphed it to Greek so everyone would understand it. Latin came 3 or 5 hundred years later. But, in any language, it is not about the Mass, it is about Christ's message, his love, and our need to show that love in our daily lives. If your parish doesn't have that, it doesn't matter whether you have church picnic music or Gregorian Chant; doesn't matter whether you are Tridentine or Novus Ordo, you have missed the boat.

My opinion. Sorry if I've offended.




Your situation reminds me of the words of Jesus, Who said He was more concerned with keeping the spirit of the law, not always the letter of the law. They can differ.




This can be confusing, just what is the letter of the spirit and the letter of the law?
--hide--


I agree with Ray's comments. I'll add this:

Like most Eastern wisdom, and the Bible was really at least as much Eastern idiom as Western until the Neoplatonists and Thomists Westernized it, one must take the words of wisdom in their context and experience the effect of the whole. In contrast, the Western or analytical view that we inherited from the Greeks and Romans works by breaking things down into their little parts and trying to understand the whole by undertanding the parts.

It seems to me that the Pharisees had become very Westernized: they would look at a statement in the Law and say that statement means this and if we do it we're righteous. Jesus' teaching is very Eastern. He seems to be saying, Why did the God give you the Law? Because he is like a father and we his children and a father wants his children to truly love each other in their hearts and to love Him, God, our Father. So, for Jesus, the Law stands, but only as a guidepost to what is really important, and that is the Spirit that is the point of the Law.

Sometimes today we, being Westerners, and having had our religion filtered through two very strong Western filters (Neoplatonist Augustinian and Aristotelian Thomism), are sometimes blind to the Eastern wisdom, that is to God's Wisdom delivered in an Eastern, Asian idiom, which is the way Jesus actually delivered it.

Of course both have validity. But, if you wish to start to see the difference, merely compare the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels and the Epistles of John (more Eastern in idiom) versus the Acts (of Luke) and the Epistles of Paul (more Western).

In sum, the Spirit is the actual, deep down message (or state of mind) behind the Law (rules). Jesus routinely violated the rules, scandalizing the locals, but was always true to the Spirit. I think his point was to get us to see how God thinks as opposed to how Man thinks, and then to have us change our hearts (metanoia). Rules are good, but rules are means to an end. The end is the change of heart into the Spirit.

Sep 16th 2012 new

Well stated Gerald.

Sep 16th 2012 new

I have noticed that the new translation and some of the behaviors at mass are designed to reintroduce more reverence into the mass. I have also noticed that certain masses at different times in the schedule may have more reverence shown at those times. I think there is some effort to blend the reverence back in.

Even though I am an artist and I am aware of how touching a painting could damage it, I think it is in this instance OK if a mother was letting her baby touch it. I understand your worry though.

Sep 17th 2012 new
Odd. Last i looked, the canon of the bible was neither eastern or western. As for eastern influences, some are quite good. However i would also point out that most heresies, especially all the early ones came from the east. One issue that is eastern is the " feeling" aspect of the faith. Feelings are truely a poor way to follow God! Feeling are easily swayed. I have a great love of the various Eastern Liturgies and have attended them when possible. But to make a sweeping statement that implies east is best, well......
Sep 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Tim-734178 said: Odd. Last i looked, the canon of the bible was neither eastern or western. As for eastern influences, some...
(Quote) Tim-734178 said: Odd. Last i looked, the canon of the bible was neither eastern or western. As for eastern influences, some are quite good. However i would also point out that most heresies, especially all the early ones came from the east. One issue that is eastern is the " feeling" aspect of the faith. Feelings are truely a poor way to follow God! Feeling are easily swayed. I have a great love of the various Eastern Liturgies and have attended them when possible. But to make a sweeping statement that implies east is best, well......
--hide--


Hi Tim,

I fear I have not made myself very clear. By Eastern and Western idioms, I did not mean to imply anything about the Greek versus Latin sides of the Church. By Eastern idiom, I mean that idiom we experience in the writings of the Buddha, in Taoism, and perhaps in the Indian writings. The Western idiom is the one we experience in Plato and Aristotle, and then later in Augustine and Aquinas who embraced these Pagan philosophies and adapted them to Christianity to make what we recognize as Middle Ages to Tridentine Catholicism.

But, the Middle East was then a nexus of the philosophies of East (meaning Asia) and West (mening Greece and Rome). Perhaps, that is why God chose the Jews to be His people and placed Christ in this milieu where he could embody both idioms and speak to people from both continents.

The Asian idiom is so very different in form from the Western, but it is in many ways more poetic. If people were to spend a little time studying the Tao Te Ching or the Buddhist writings, one gets a sense of how wisdom can be expressed with contrast, hyperbole of opposites, denial of the obvious, etc. These were the idioms Jesus Christ used. They mystify us today because it is a foreign idiom to us. We want everything parsed and measured out like Aquinas. But Jesus did not teach that way. Aquinas made Christianity understandable to the analytical minds of the West. But, Jesus blew people's minds with koans that made no sense on their surface but opened one's mind to a deeper reality.

The psalms are written in a very Hebrew idiom, and I would argue that this idiom is way more Asian or Eastern than European or Western. I used to find the psalms opaque and arcane. Still do sometimes. But, after I read Augustine and learned how this great Western rhetoretician embraced the psalms, I gave them another chance and learned to appreciate them at some level. If the great Neoplatonist Westerner could embrace Psalms, then there is hope for the rest of us Westerners!

But, it helps to acknowledge right away that this is a different idiom. It does no good to apply Aristotelian logic to the psalms...or to Genesis for that matter. Just leads one astray. Likewise with the saying of Jesus. You cannot apply logic. You just have to let Him blow your mind...like a koan...and more to the point, your heart...which is what he was after. :-)

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