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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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09/18/2012 new
I would argue againt the "asian" flare simply do to the fact that asian religions are false. So much so that the use of asian style meditation e
09/18/2012 new
Eh smart phones!! Anyway, asian meditation was condemmed by the current pontiff while the head of CDOF. Regardless of what a particular groups bend is, the Church is the final authority on this. And She by the grace of God is Augustinian and Thomistic, not Buddist, taoist etc.
09/18/2012 new

(Quote) Tim-734178 said: I would argue againt the "asian" flare simply do to the fact that asian religions are false. So ...
(Quote) Tim-734178 said: I would argue againt the "asian" flare simply do to the fact that asian religions are false. So much so that the use of asian style meditation e
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I'm not clear: are you saying that it isn't Asian, or are you saying that it shouldn't be Asian because other Asian religions are false?

09/18/2012 new

(Quote) Tim-734178 said: Eh smart phones!! Anyway, asian meditation was condemmed by the current pontiff while the head of CDOF. Re...
(Quote) Tim-734178 said: Eh smart phones!! Anyway, asian meditation was condemmed by the current pontiff while the head of CDOF. Regardless of what a particular groups bend is, the Church is the final authority on this. And She by the grace of God is Augustinian and Thomistic, not Buddist, taoist etc.
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Believe me, I know well the value of Thomism. In fact, when I taught Junior High CCD on Morality, I began with an introduction to Thomist thought. I believed that the kids needed to know first of all that there was such a thing as truth, and that one could know it to some limited degree. (Which is totally opposite of what they are taight even in Catholic schools nowadays.) We discussed how one knows truth and then got into a Thomistic approach to ethics. We spoke of the Natural law, Revelation, Reason, The Church and the Holy Spirit as ways we know truth. May have been a little over their heads, but definitely gave them something to think on.

But there is another side that I seem not to be able to convey adequately. Westerners tend to live in an either/or, black/white, mine/yours sort of vision of reality. Good and evil are antithetical, and right and wrong oppposites in this world view. If I give you something, then I loose something. But, the Eastern world view is more subtle. There is good and evil, but they are two sides of the same coin. There is beauty and ugliness, but one cannot know beauty without ugliness and ugliness has no meanng without beauty.

Here's how it may relate to theology: For the westerner, if I have 100 fuel and give away 100 of it, then I have zero fuel. You need to believe this to get a rocket to the moon. It is true.

But, if I have 100 love and give away 100 of it, then I end up with something like 110 love. Ask any parent of multiple kids. Does each kid get a smaller amount of love? NO. Time, maybe yes, but love no. The love actually grows with the giving, kind of like a muscle growing with being used. It is irrational, unWestern, but it also is true. To an Asian mind this makes perfect sense. To a Western mind it is troubling-doesn't fit into our world view.

For me, one of the beauties of Christianity is that it sees the world through both idioms, and can lead us to wisdom through Greek sylllogism or through Asian contradiction.

09/19/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: (Quote) Tim-734178 said: I would argue againt the "asian" flare simply...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:

Quote:
Tim-734178 said: I would argue againt the "asian" flare simply do to the fact that asian religions are false. So much so that the use of asian style meditation e



I'm not clear: are you saying that it isn't Asian, or are you saying that it shouldn't be Asian because other Asian religions are false?

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When you say Asian, do you mean wholistic in a way that is foreign to western thinking?

09/19/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Believe me, I know well the value of Thomism. In fact, when I taught Junior High CCD on ...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Believe me, I know well the value of Thomism. In fact, when I taught Junior High CCD on Morality, I began with an introduction to Thomist thought. I believed that the kids needed to know first of all that there was such a thing as truth, and that one could know it to some limited degree. (Which is totally opposite of what they are taight even in Catholic schools nowadays.) We discussed how one knows truth and then got into a Thomistic approach to ethics. We spoke of the Natural law, Revelation, Reason, The Church and the Holy Spirit as ways we know truth. May have been a little over their heads, but definitely gave them something to think on.

But there is another side that I seem not to be able to convey adequately. Westerners tend to live in an either/or, black/white, mine/yours sort of vision of reality. Good and evil are antithetical, and right and wrong oppposites in this world view. If I give you something, then I loose something. But, the Eastern world view is more subtle. There is good and evil, but they are two sides of the same coin. There is beauty and ugliness, but one cannot know beauty without ugliness and ugliness has no meanng without beauty.

Here's how it may relate to theology: For the westerner, if I have 100 fuel and give away 100 of it, then I have zero fuel. You need to believe this to get a rocket to the moon. It is true.

But, if I have 100 love and give away 100 of it, then I end up with something like 110 love. Ask any parent of multiple kids. Does each kid get a smaller amount of love? NO. Time, maybe yes, but love no. The love actually grows with the giving, kind of like a muscle growing with being used. It is irrational, unWestern, but it also is true. To an Asian mind this makes perfect sense. To a Western mind it is troubling-doesn't fit into our world view.

For me, one of the beauties of Christianity is that it sees the world through both idioms, and can lead us to wisdom through Greek sylllogism or through Asian contradiction.

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Don't the Asian religions focus on non-dualistic approach?

09/19/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: Don't the Asian religions focus on non-dualistic approach?
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:



Don't the Asian religions focus on non-dualistic approach?

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Well, I'm not talking about Asian religion's theology, but rather about idiom. It is a genre, a way of expressing and teaching wisdom. If you are not familiar with Asian writings about wisdom or Asian literature, may I suggest a modern American book, "Zen and the Art of Motocycle Maintenance." I stumbled across this in college and it helped explain the different world views for me. Of course, I had already read the Tao Te Ching in high school, so had the experience of the Asian thought process, but could not have articulated the differences with western thought until reading Robert Pirsig's novel. Besides being a nice story of a dad and his son on a trip, and I love trips, it is an exploration of these two world views and how they each can be true but very different experiences.

But, I certainly do not intend to equate the theology of eastern religions with Christianity. I'm just saying that Jesus often taught with an Asian style, and it helps to understand that and embrace it rather than trying to dissect it. One can dissect Greek and Roman thought, but one needs to let the experience of Christ wash over one to get the other side of it, beyond the intellectual. At their hearts, Christianity and Judaism are in fact Asian religions. We just miss that because of the thick accretions of Westernism precipitated upon them from 2 millenia of Greek thought.

09/19/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: (Quote) Marian-83994 said: Don't the Asian religions focus on...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:

Quote:
Marian-83994 said:



Don't the Asian religions focus on non-dualistic approach?




Well, I'm not talking about Asian religion's theology, but rather about idiom. It is a genre, a way of expressing and teaching wisdom. If you are not familiar with Asian writings about wisdom or Asian literature, may I suggest a modern American book, "Zen and the Art of Motocycle Maintenance." I stumbled across this in college and it helped explain the different world views for me. Of course, I had already read the Tao Te Ching in high school, so had the experience of the Asian thought process, but could not have articulated the differences with western thought until reading Robert Pirsig's novel. Besides being a nice story of a dad and his son on a trip, and I love trips, it is an exploration of these two world views and how they each can be true but very different experiences.

But, I certainly do not intend to equate the theology of eastern religions with Christianity. I'm just saying that Jesus often taught with an Asian style, and it helps to understand that and embrace it rather than trying to dissect it. One can dissect Greek and Roman thought, but one needs to let the experience of Christ wash over one to get the other side of it, beyond the intellectual. At their hearts, Christianity and Judaism are in fact Asian religions. We just miss that because of the thick accretions of Westernism precipitated upon them from 2 millenia of Greek thought.

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I have not studied Asian Religion but I think I understand what you are saying about idiom and approach. My niece is into this non-dualistic thinking which I think is characteristic of western thinking. She majored in Asian literature...

09/21/2012 new
(Quote) Marian-83994 said: I have noticed that the new translation and some of the behaviors at mass are designed to reintroduce more reve...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:

I have noticed that the new translation and some of the behaviors at mass are designed to reintroduce more reverence into the mass. I have also noticed that certain masses at different times in the schedule may have more reverence shown at those times. I think there is some effort to blend the reverence back in.

Even though I am an artist and I am aware of how touching a painting could damage it, I think it is in this instance OK if a mother was letting her baby touch it. I understand your worry though.

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We were just startled by it! eyepopping And had never seen that kind of behavior before in mass. I give that mother credit for holding the baby up to see the painting, but I think she should have known better than to let the baby touch the painting.

No big deal if one baby touches the paint on one painting, but the idea here is reverence and respect in a house of God. If babies born in the 1950's and 1960's (or before that) learned good church manners, then these newer babies can too! Praying

Or maybe I'm just one of the "uptight" people! tongue
09/21/2012 new
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Hi Tim, I fear I have not made myself very clear. By Eastern and Western idioms, I did not mea...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Hi Tim,

I fear I have not made myself very clear. By Eastern and Western idioms, I did not mean to imply anything about the Greek versus Latin sides of the Church. By Eastern idiom, I mean that idiom we experience in the writings of the Buddha, in Taoism, and perhaps in the Indian writings. The Western idiom is the one we experience in Plato and Aristotle, and then later in Augustine and Aquinas who embraced these Pagan philosophies and adapted them to Christianity to make what we recognize as Middle Ages to Tridentine Catholicism.

But, the Middle East was then a nexus of the philosophies of East (meaning Asia) and West (mening Greece and Rome). Perhaps, that is why God chose the Jews to be His people and placed Christ in this milieu where he could embody both idioms and speak to people from both continents.

The Asian idiom is so very different in form from the Western, but it is in many ways more poetic. If people were to spend a little time studying the Tao Te Ching or the Buddhist writings, one gets a sense of how wisdom can be expressed with contrast, hyperbole of opposites, denial of the obvious, etc. These were the idioms Jesus Christ used. They mystify us today because it is a foreign idiom to us. We want everything parsed and measured out like Aquinas. But Jesus did not teach that way. Aquinas made Christianity understandable to the analytical minds of the West. But, Jesus blew people's minds with koans that made no sense on their surface but opened one's mind to a deeper reality.

The psalms are written in a very Hebrew idiom, and I would argue that this idiom is way more Asian or Eastern than European or Western. I used to find the psalms opaque and arcane. Still do sometimes. But, after I read Augustine and learned how this great Western rhetoretician embraced the psalms, I gave them another chance and learned to appreciate them at some level. If the great Neoplatonist Westerner could embrace Psalms, then there is hope for the rest of us Westerners!

But, it helps to acknowledge right away that this is a different idiom. It does no good to apply Aristotelian logic to the psalms...or to Genesis for that matter. Just leads one astray. Likewise with the saying of Jesus. You cannot apply logic. You just have to let Him blow your mind...like a koan...and more to the point, your heart...which is what he was after. :-)

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Maybe I am just too ignorant to enter this phase of the discussion, but what is a koan? scratchchin
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