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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

09/27/2012 new
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Dawn, I must disagree with you here. You are speaking about Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts have honor and seek...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Dawn, I must disagree with you here. You are speaking about Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts have honor and seek to help others. But honor itself implies that the person has integrity and truthfulness as said, but does not imply selflessness. Just the opposite in fact. Honor is about your own reputation and conduct. It is a very self-oriented quality. A man of honor values his integrity, truthfulness, and reputation for the same. He will fight to the death to defend his honor or that of his family. It is the basis of tribal warfare, blood revenge, and intergenerational feuds. So, if you insult him or hit him, you can expect to be challenged to a duel, and someone may well die. You can read about this in the hiostory of our forefathers. The good news is, you will get to choose the weapons.

Honor is about self and family, not selflessness.


Now, a person who has honor first, and then uses it in a selfless way (as the Boy Scouts teach one to do), that is a hero, a knight, perchance a saint. If the honor comes first, so there is first integrity, truthfulness, and the knowing of who one is, then the sacrifice can come later and you will know it is legitimate.


My point is just don't confuse honor with selflessness. Two very distinct qualities; both noble.

--hide--


Then honor and I haven't met. I find nothing truly respectable or honorable about someone with no forgiveness, mercy, or compassion. The Hatfields and McCoys were not what I was thinking of in terms of honor.

noun

1.

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.

2.

a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.

3.

high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.

4.

such respect manifested: a memorial in honor of the dead.

5.

high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor.

I was operating with the first definition of honor. Though I do agree that the other four fit. And so does yours, Gerald. Thank you for giving me another angel to consider. I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of the meaning of the word. It's definitely layered and full of connotation. While I see your point about it having a focus for some on family and personal distinction, I don't think that makes it selfish in nature always. I think a man who is honorable before God is different than a man who's sense of honor prevents him from treating women with respect. Honor, like many qualities, can be achieved in a variety of ways, some more pure than others.

Marian, this is a very thought provoking discussion. Thank you! rose
09/27/2012 new
(Quote) Marian-83994 said: (Quote) Cindy-534370 said: A man of honor.http://www.chivalrynow...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:

Quote:
Cindy-534370 said:



A man of honor.



www.chivalrynow.net






Cindy, This is an excellent illustration of what is a man of honor. I love this honor code! THANK YOU!

--hide--


YES!!!

I know that some will say that this kind of honor, standard of chivalry, is too much. So much of our world falls short of the ideal. I don't expect every man and woman I meet to be this all the time. Heck, I can't because I am not. I do try, though, and I expect others to aim for it. Men who aim for this kind of honor are much more likely to hit it than men who accept something less as a goal.

Aim high so as to hit the mark!
09/27/2012 new
(Quote) Dan-656122 said: I hate to say I don't have any recommendations other than the usual of the Bible and the Catechism of...
(Quote) Dan-656122 said:



I hate to say I don't have any recommendations other than the usual of the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I have found there are many stories that feature characters who are men of honor; off the top of my head, I'd say the Lord of the Lords triology and The Hobbit.

--hide--


Dan, I don't think there is a better book to go to for stories of virtue than the Bible. And I don't mean that as just a person of faith. I love stories, and as a storyteller myself, I think some of the best tales ever told are between Genesis and Revelation. Lot's of great examples there. wink
09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: Thank you. Do you have any further elaboration in describing your meaning of integrity?
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:



Thank you. Do you have any further elaboration in describing your meaning of integrity?

--hide--
Haven't read the subsequent posts, so there will likely be some repetition. I believe the most import characteristic of "honor' is integrity. An integral part of integrity is honesty. A person of integrity has a sound moral character and adheres to his principles of proper ethical and moral conduct.

Will a person of honor err? Occasionally, yes, because he's human. But...he'll acknowledge his shortomings, be forthright, try to right the wrong, and have a firm resolve to do better next time. His efforts will be concentrated upon minimizing lapses.

A person conducting himself in the above manner can be considered "honorable", IMHO.

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Dawn-58330 said: Then honor and I haven't met. I find nothing truly respectable or honorable about someone with...
(Quote) Dawn-58330 said:

Then honor and I haven't met. I find nothing truly respectable or honorable about someone with no forgiveness, mercy, or compassion. The Hatfields and McCoys were not what I was thinking of in terms of honor.

noun

1.

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.

2.

a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.

3.

high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.

4.

such respect manifested: a memorial in honor of the dead.

5.

high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor.

I was operating with the first definition of honor. Though I do agree that the other four fit. And so does yours, Gerald. Thank you for giving me another angel to consider. I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of the meaning of the word. It's definitely layered and full of connotation. While I see your point about it having a focus for some on family and personal distinction, I don't think that makes it selfish in nature always. I think a man who is honorable before God is different than a man who's sense of honor prevents him from treating women with respect. Honor, like many qualities, can be achieved in a variety of ways, some more pure than others.

Marian, this is a very thought provoking discussion. Thank you!
--hide--



You are welcome Dawn. I am learning a lot here too and Gerald's answer took me by surprise and added much to think about. In my mind defending ones family/honor is kind of related to "saving face" and is often seen in culturally defined settings and situations. However I need to read and consider what is being said here. I am enjoying this discussion too.

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Marian-83994 said: Thank you. Do you have any further elabor...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Marian-83994 said:



Thank you. Do you have any further elaboration in describing your meaning of integrity?


Haven't read the subsequent posts, so there will likely be some repetition. I believe the most import characteristic of "honor' is integrity. An integral part of integrity is honesty. A person of integrity has a sound moral character and adheres to his principles of proper ethical and moral conduct.

Will a person of honor err? Occasionally, yes, because he's human. But...he'll acknowledge his shortomings, be forthright, try to right the wrong, and have a firm resolve to do better next time. His efforts will be concentrated upon minimizing lapses.

A person conducting himself in the above manner can be considered "honorable", IMHO.

--hide--



Thank you Ray for your post here. I appreciate it!

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: Dawn, I must disagree with you here. You are speaking about Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts have ...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:



Dawn, I must disagree with you here. You are speaking about Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts have honor and seek to help others. But honor itself implies that the person has integrity and truthfulness as said, but does not imply selflessness. Just the opposite in fact. Honor is about your own reputation and conduct. It is a very self-oriented quality. A man of honor values his integrity, truthfulness, and reputation for the same. He will fight to the death to defend his honor or that of his family. It is the basis of tribal warfare, blood revenge, and intergenerational feuds. So, if you insult him or hit him, you can expect to be challenged to a duel, and someone may well die. You can read about this in the hiostory of our forefathers. The good news is, you will get to choose the weapons.

Honor is about self and family, not selflessness.


Now, a person who has honor first, and then uses it in a selfless way (as the Boy Scouts teach one to do), that is a hero, a knight, perchance a saint. If the honor comes first, so there is first integrity, truthfulness, and the knowing of who one is, then the sacrifice can come later and you will know it is legitimate.


My point is just don't confuse honor with selflessness. Two very distinct qualities; both noble.

--hide--


THANK YOU Gerald for your post. It gives me a lot to think about and consider!!! I took your post to be related to certain cultural beliefs and practices. Would you agree?

09/27/2012 new

To be a man of honor would be a man who is as good as his word. If he says it, he means it. A promise, a handshake, a vow are all symbolic of a man's word, this his honor. To lose honor is to lose face. My dad's advice (in playing the card game 31) was if you have your honor, you have everything. Without it, you have nothing.

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: THANK YOU Gerald for your post. It gives me a lot to think about and consider!!! I took y...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:



THANK YOU Gerald for your post. It gives me a lot to think about and consider!!! I took your post to be related to certain cultural beliefs and practices. Would you agree?

--hide--


I'm not sure what you mean by your question about cultural practices.

It seems some people confuse honor with virtue. Same with integrity. Honor and integrity are virtues, but they don't also assume that a person with honor has any of the other virtues. Honor, being a virtue, is a good thing. But, honor is also the reason for much of the bloodshed, anger and revenge in the world too, so it is not enough by itself to create a good Christian or a truly virtuous person. However, I would agree that it is fundamental and a virtue without which most of the other virtues are vitiated.

For an exploration of honor to a Catholic, check out Jean Anoui's (sp?) play, "Becket." The subtitle is, I think, "The honor of God." A marvelous film was made of the play starring Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. Very close to the script of the play. At the end, one is left wondering, was it Becket's honor or God's honor? I'll say no more...worth reading or seeing it if anyone hasn't already.

09/27/2012 new

(Quote) Gerald-283546 said: (Quote) Marian-83994 said: THANK YOU Gerald for your post. It giv...
(Quote) Gerald-283546 said:

Quote:
Marian-83994 said:



THANK YOU Gerald for your post. It gives me a lot to think about and consider!!! I took your post to be related to certain cultural beliefs and practices. Would you agree?




I'm not sure what you mean by your question about cultural practices.

It seems some people confuse honor with virtue. Same with integrity. Honor and integrity are virtues, but they don't also assume that a person with honor has any of the other virtues. Honor, being a virtue, is a good thing. But, honor is also the reason for much of the bloodshed, anger and revenge in the world too, so it is not enough by itself to create a good Christian or a truly virtuous person. However, I would agree that it is fundamental and a virtue without which most of the other virtues are vitiated.

For an exploration of honor to a Catholic, check out Jean Anoui's (sp?) play, "Becket." The subtitle is, I think, "The honor of God." A marvelous film was made of the play starring Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. Very close to the script of the play. At the end, one is left wondering, was it Becket's honor or God's honor? I'll say no more...worth reading or seeing it if anyone hasn't already.

--hide--


I will check into it Gerald-- Maybe try to rent it --Thank you.

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