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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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10/08/2012 new

Chelsea,


I believe that the CCC, as a part of the ordinary magisterium, participates in magisterial infallibility. The premise that you call into question is, therefore, magisterially supported in the same paragraph with the line "Ecclesia credit sicut orat;" the Church believes as she prays. The ordering of credit and orat in relation to sicut is very important when translating this line. To attempt to translate this as the Church prays as she believes would be a grave mistake. If you would like to look at the latin for yourself, here is the vatican website link:www.vatican.va

10/09/2012 new

Geoffrey,

Pope Bl. John Paul II did not bind the Catechism upon us under the assent of faith (if you read the documents preceding the first and second editions, this is evident...the very fact that there can be editions denoting CHANGE evinces fallibility). He does not even bind the religious submission of intellect and will of the whole Church throughout the world to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. All he does is order its publication, suggest it as a tool for catechists and a tool for bishops to draft local catechisms. The most anyone could jump to reasonably would be that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is bound upon our pious submission due to the credibility of the Pope's office (whosoever sits there under bare ordinary circumstance, can err).

If one were to hearken back to the First Vatican Council, it would be most evident that the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not fall under anything bound by the assent of faith (far from it).

If you have a good reason to present that the Catechism is infallible, I'd like to know it.

I am familiar with article 1124 in the Catechism. It is illogical to equate credens to fides in Latin and then especially illogical translate credens as "faith" in english.

10/10/2012 new

Hey Everyone,


As I was scanning the papal documents for a way to refute Chelsea's point, I discovered something which makes my whole point fall apart. In Mediator Dei it says, "But if one desires to differentiate and describe the relationship between faith and the sacred liturgy in absolute and general terms, it is perfectly correct to say, 'Lex credendi legem statuat supplicandi' - let the rule of belief determine the rule of prayer." This if-then structure statement does not allow for the leap that I was looking to make.


Thanks for all of your input, especially Chelsea.


Cheers!

Geoff

10/10/2012 new

i think you're stretching things a bit. run your proposition by your faculty advisor.


you don't want to try to break new ground in a graduate paper. wait until you've published a bit before attempting that.


why so eager to declare heresies?

10/10/2012 new

David, a couple of points of note.

a. I don't currently have a faculty advisor. I am running this over in my head until I decide to go back to school for higher level degrees.

b. The heresies bit is simply coincidental. While I was getting my BA I was introduced to the principle of Lex Orandi Lex Credendi and I saw future thesis potential therein.

10/10/2012 new

(Quote) Geoffrey-901219 said: David, a couple of points of note. a. I don't currently have a faculty advisor. I a...
(Quote) Geoffrey-901219 said:

David, a couple of points of note.

a. I don't currently have a faculty advisor. I am running this over in my head until I decide to go back to school for higher level degrees.

b. The heresies bit is simply coincidental. While I was getting my BA I was introduced to the principle of Lex Orandi Lex Credendi and I saw future thesis potential therein.

--hide--


OK, OK! But please drop the $50 words Torquemada. When writing pretend you are sitting across the kitchen table from your grandmother and two of her bingo friends and explain things as if you're speaking with them.


wink

10/10/2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: (Quote) Geoffrey-901219 said: David, a couple of points of note. a....
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Quote:
Geoffrey-901219 said:

David, a couple of points of note.

a. I don't currently have a faculty advisor. I am running this over in my head until I decide to go back to school for higher level degrees.

b. The heresies bit is simply coincidental. While I was getting my BA I was introduced to the principle of Lex Orandi Lex Credendi and I saw future thesis potential therein.



OK, OK! But please drop the $50 words Torquemada. When writing pretend you are sitting across the kitchen table from your grandmother and two of her bingo friends and explain things as if you're speaking with them.

--hide--


I'm okay if he uses the $50 words. It's the $2 words that get me.

10/10/2012 new

You're most welcome, Geoff. I hope that I did not try your patience too badly.

10/12/2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: You're most welcome, Geoff. I hope that I did not try your patience too badly.
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

You're most welcome, Geoff. I hope that I did not try your patience too badly.

--hide--


You've provided an excellent foil. I'm sure he's delighted with you and your thoughtful replies. You two share so many interests, you should start communicating.

10/12/2012 new

She provided an excellent foil indeed, David. Chelsea, I love arguing, so your responses were enjoyable and stimulating.

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