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Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Victor-544727 said: (Quote) Patricia-29176 said: Nathan, I've had communication w...
(Quote) Victor-544727 said:

Quote:
Patricia-29176 said:



Nathan, I've had communication with a couple gentlemen who had "free to marry", but weren't free to marry. One person said he would eventually start his annullment, but hadn't started it at all (that one I reported and he ended up changing it and also sending me nasty emails). But a couple others said that they didn't get married in the Catholic church and so they didn't need an annullment. If they got married in a Protestant church, don't they still need an annulment of form? And, if they get married in a civil marriage (justice of the peace), do they need any kind of annullment? There does seem to be much confusion still about who needs an annullment (sigh). I also think that a few people answer yes because they are divorced and so are free to marry, but NOT free to marry in the chuch (obviously a misinterpretation on their part).



The simple answer: The Church recognizes all marriages as valid. To re-marry in the Church an annullment will be necessary, regardless of how the previous marriage was performed.

--hide--

To add to this: it also doesn't matter if the person was Catholic.

Oct 24th 2012 new

[quote]Jerry-74383 said:

To add to this: it also doesn't matter if the person was Catholic.

[/quote

So Jerry, does that mean that the only time you don't need an annulment is if the ex-spouse has died? And, do civil marriages (justice-of-the-peace weddings without any religion involved) need an annulment?

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: (Quote) Jerry-74383 said: To add to this: it also doesn't matter if ...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:

[quote]Jerry-74383 said:

To add to this: it also doesn't matter if the person was Catholic.

[/quote

So Jerry, does that mean that the only time you don't need an annulment is if the ex-spouse has died? And, do civil marriages (justice-of-the-peace weddings without any religion involved) need an annulment?

--hide--

Yes and Yes.

For a civil marriage, if one spouse was Catholic and did not have a dispensation for the marriage then the lack of form process will apply. If both spouses were non-Catholic a full annulment process is required.

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Nathan-48443 said: (Quote) There does seem to be much confusion still about who needs an annullment (sigh). I also th...
(Quote) Nathan-48443 said:

Quote:
There does seem to be much confusion still about who needs an annullment (sigh). I also think that a few people answer yes because they are divorced and so are free to marry, but NOT free to marry in the chuch (obviously a misinterpretation on their part).

And therein lies the crux of the problem. The hardest part is trying to educate people when that's the furthest thing on their mind.

--hide--



I've often wished that instead of just saying "free to marry", it would specifically say "free to get married in the Catholic Church". Like you said, there is that difficult education piece, but at least it would get them to think a little bit before just saying "yes, I'm free to marry, period". I like what you were saying earlier about having it as part of the account, so that Admin could flag it and ask them for clarification on how it is that they are listing themself as divorced but free to marry in the church, as would be the case where the ex-spouse is now deceased. This way they could also be allowed to participate in the matching system.

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Yes and Yes. For a civil marriage, if one spouse was Catholic and did not have a d...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Yes and Yes.

For a civil marriage, if one spouse was Catholic and did not have a dispensation for the marriage then the lack of form process will apply. If both spouses were non-Catholic a full annulment process is required.

--hide--


Thanks, Jerry! You should write a book. I have one here, but your explanations are much more concise and easier to understand!

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: Thanks, Jerry! You should write a book. I have one here, but your explanations are much mor...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:


Thanks, Jerry! You should write a book. I have one here, but your explanations are much more concise and easier to understand!

--hide--

Thanks. While not (quite) book length, I have written this up in the Divorced forum several times. It would be much easier to find if I could search by author and forum...

Oct 24th 2012 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: Thanks, Jerry! You should write a book. I have one here, but your explanations are much...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:



Thanks, Jerry! You should write a book. I have one here, but your explanations are much more concise and easier to understand!

--hide--

Here are links to a few posts that explain some of this in more detail. None are the post I was looking for, but they'll have to do for now. If you view in threaded mode, the linkis will take you directly to the intended post. If you view in flat mode, you have to scan the page for my posts and guess which one I might be linking to! wink

www.catholicmatch.com
www.catholicmatch.com
www.catholicmatch.com

Oct 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Nathan-48443 said: (Quote) Jerry-74383 said: Why wouldn't they just use annulled...
(Quote) Nathan-48443 said:

Quote:
Jerry-74383 said:

Why wouldn't they just use annulled in that case?

The only two situation I can think of where one has been previously married and is free to marry without having received a decree of nullity are (a) the former spouse dies after the divorce, or (b) the relatively rare situation where a dissolution of the marriage is granted.


We have two solutions that have been discussed (at ridiculously great lengths).

The first is to move "free to marry" from being part of the profile and make it part of the account and make it a searchable criteria. This means it wouldn't be able to be changed after profile creation without submitting a ticket.

The second is to add additional marital status - divorced, spouse deceased. This is almost exclusively the case that comes up. In fact, I can't think of any other cases besides one laicized priest in the past 9+ years.

I don't know which we'll do for sure, but this is something that is on our minds.

--hide--



I like both solutions, and I would add one more, mentioning about being Catholic and marrying in a civil ceremony (without a priest's permission), i.e. "lack of form" annulment, which only takes a month or so to receive. Or, have members choose between needing a Long Form Annulment vs. a Short Form Annulment (Lack of Form), which, if nothing else, would make members think about what they need. Descriptions would be very easy, since the Long Form Annulment applies to all situations (or 99.9%) other than the Lack of Form annulment requirements, which could be stated easily.

One problem that CM faces is that, too many times, Church personnel are telling divorced members that they don't need an annulment until they are ready to marry. CM needs to address this dilemma, and probably the account is the best place to address it. I would remove "Free to Marry" because it is too subjective. Advising members to contact their Tribunal office is a great idea, too.

I'm not sure if education through the Forums gets the word out best, as I don't know how many members read the forums vs. post in them. I'm sure that Admin does have an idea, though! wink

Oct 28th 2012 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: Nathan, I wonder if it would be worth putting a fairly simple description of who needs ...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:



Nathan, I wonder if it would be worth putting a fairly simple description of who needs an annullment somewhere on CM. I know this has been discussed in forums before, and Jerry has been most helpful in this regard, but it's not that easy to ferret out this information as it gets encoded in forum postings. Perhaps 1 single posting that gets put at the top of the divorced forum (and stuck there) would really help divorced Catholics. I don't have enough knowlege about it to do that, but I bet Jerry (or someone else does). (And, it could have a disclaimer to talk to your Tribunal for specific information about your own case.) By the way, many folks don't even know that the best place to get information about getting an annullment is their diocesan Tribunal office!

--hide--

Yes Nathan. Maybe a helpful description in a pop up or separate page or something, that people should be required to read before being allowed to proceed to chose whether they are free to marry or not would be helpful. There is a lack of knowledge in this area. I have seen many profiles of men who have said they are divorced by say "yes" or "unsure" if they are free to marry, which I don't understand. Any way you chose to clarify it, we really need a better filtering process for "free to marry" so we can easily know this without having to read the entire profile. Thanls you for at least talking about it.

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