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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) Sean-851370 said: I just don't think that conservatives really exist anymore, at least in the politi...
(Quote) Sean-851370 said:




I just don't think that conservatives really exist anymore, at least in the political realm. The old-school conservatives have been overwhelmed by the neocons, who are anything but conservative.

--hide--



The old school conservatives are all dying. The new voter today is more likely to be a member of an ethnic minority (which is more likely to vote Democrat) and is also more likely to be a professed atheist. The numbers have simply caught up to the conservatives. (Protestants officially became a minority in 2012: www.ethicsdaily.com. They were the bulk of the country's population, and they contracepted themselves into irrelevance.)

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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Steve added his opinion after the definition. The definition is italicized, his opinio...
(Quote) William-607613 said:

Steve added his opinion after the definition. The definition is italicized, his opinion is not. (He could have made it clearer by adding a break between the two, but that's a different story.)

I don't see the connection between federal loans (for anything) and socialism; your example of the student loans certainly doesn't fit in with any of the definitions of the word that you posted. There are plenty of private institutions that are in the business of lending; government participation in the industry doesn't imply its' control of it. If the person in your example got a better loan from the government than he could from his bank, it doesn't make him a socialist, as much as you might want to pin the word on him. If I choose to mail an important document overnight through the postal service and not FedEx, it doesn't make me a socialist for choosing the postal service. (I'd be surprised if the fellow you are referring to actually let your point go at that.)

The point you make about the water distribution is a better example, although it still doesn't hit it on the head. (It isn't an example of the production and distribution of a good.) The government is providing the service of filtering and distributing the water, much as it provides the services of a police department, a fire department, a military, etc. It's not producing the water itself, though, which is already provided.

I think most of us would agree that these are areas in which the government does a fine job in providing a service, but it doesn't make them examples of socialism.











--hide--


I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, he could have added a break between the two.

I made a small omission. Back when this lad was in school, Federal loans were administered through the banks. Why? I don't know, but they were, and they added to the load overhead. Since Obama took office, students now get loans directly from the government. I didn't point this out to him, he brought the whole topic up on his own. I didn't say a word.

True, in the Great Lakes region, water doesn't have to be produced, but it does have to be made potable. Water has to be refined to make it drinkable. If you're getting water from the ocean, then water has to be distilled to remove the salt.

Here's another example. In 1867 the Merrill Act was passed that provided land and money for the establishment of land-grant universities. These universities were set up to train the engineers, scientists, and businessmen that would run the country. Few of us would deny that this is a public good. I also doubt that anyone would consider tbis "socialism". But here's a question to ponder. What would happen if such a bill were passed today? Do you believe that there would be no outcries from one side that the government was "trying to control higher education?

How about Social Security and Medicare? Are these forms of "socialism" ?

Nobody, including me, wants the government controlling every facet of our lives. But where does this "non-socialism" end and "socialism" begin?

James ☺

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11/12/2012 new
(Quote) Sean-851370 said: I just don't think that conservatives really exist anymore, at least in the political realm. Th...
(Quote) Sean-851370 said:




I just don't think that conservatives really exist anymore, at least in the political realm. The old-school conservatives have been overwhelmed by the neocons, who are anything but conservative.

--hide--


Thankfully, neo-conservatism in the GOP seems to be on the decline and is slowly being replaced by something more representative of true "Old Right" conservatism. Given what Obama has been able to get away with in the foreign policy realm, I'm starting to suspect that over the course of the next 10-20 years that the imperialist, pro-war faction of the current conservative movement will slowly creep back into the Democratic party from whence it came.

True conservatism does still exist...one just has to know where to look. It certainly won't be found on cable news. One typically has to look to new media sources. http://www.theamericanconservative.com is one such example.
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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said: I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, h...
(Quote) James-17080 said:



I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, he could have added a break between the two.


--hide--


Fair enough. I apologize for being abrupt.

I think a fair accusation of socialism, and one that fits the Webster definition, is the administration's pushing the Chevy Volt.

As the government has bailed out both GM and Chrysler, it now has ownership of the companies. At the same time, it is pushing a product that costs over $40,000.00 but is being heavily subsidized through tax incentives (because nobody is going to lay out $40,000.00 for that car).

In other words, the car cannot stand on its own two feet in the face of open market competition, so the federal and state governments are providing tax incentives in order to sell it. (In other words, you and I are paying for this car.)

We're not talking about providing tap water, or an ambulance service, or a fire department. This is flat-out government meddling in an industry to use taxpayer dollars to make an unpopular car more attractive to a skeptical public. We are still under even-odd gas rationing here in NJ and NY after a storm that hit two weeks ago. There are homes that are not expected to have electricity until December, more than a month after this hurricane hit. Anyone with an electric car here would have nothing more than a 5,000 pound lawn decoration on their hands; it wouldn't be moving anywhere. Yet this administration, in its "infinite" (read: nonexistent) wisdom has no problems using taxpayer dollars to push this product out onto the streets. (And when these cars have all lost their juice on the NJ Turnpike or the Long Island Expressway, the very same people who pushed the product through the production process and off the showroom floor will have nothing more than a blank stare for us.)

James, you're taking this discussion to play a game of "Gotcha!" You're taking the mildest forms of government activity in your attempt to make a point that everyone is some sort of a socialist but at the same time you're not giving any credence to these examples of government overreach.


-Will

P.S. I made it clear in a response to someone else's post on this thread that this whole election reflects a reality that conservatives (until now) have probably been in denial about: they could not deliver the votes in this election and they cannot deliver them anymore. To put it another way, the culture war is over; the supporters of the government intervention in the Volt have won. You can continue to ignore the examples of government overreach because at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The government has no incentive to do anything different.




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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) Sean-851370 said: It's socialism if a modern-day pirate looks at a public service and figures he could make tons...
(Quote) Sean-851370 said:

It's socialism if a modern-day pirate looks at a public service and figures he could make tons of money by having that service privatized. GW Bush is no conservative. He's just a scion of a corrupt family. The Bushies always have been crooks, going back to Prescott's time at Brown Brothers Harriman and even before that. Our modern-day "conservatives" hate all government and want to turn society even more into a privatized hell for most people and a bonanza for a select few.


--hide--


Wow, Sean you think our modern day "conservatives" hate government. They love big government and the pyscho liberals want it even bigger. Spread the misery around and try to guarantee outcomes. You think Thomas Edison would invent in this current climate; he would probably be forced to fill out a government energy use form.

Oops, I said climate, I forgot that is changing because of the evil United States. Gore got real rich over that scam.

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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) Marianne-100218 said: So, if America turned socialistic to get votes, that is a never ending cycle. Voting f...
(Quote) Marianne-100218 said:



So, if America turned socialistic to get votes, that is a never ending cycle. Voting for President
in America is not restricted to American citizens. In many states, just proving your residency is enough
to register to vote, and then vote.

If people vote for those who give them social services and food and medical care, then more people
will come to America for those things. All of them will vote for the person promising them those
things they came for, and the cycle goes on and on.

So, that is why America has chosen Socialism, Michael. That is why people don't care about the
fundamentals of a Budget or adding to the National Debt.

And it doesn't look like things are going to change any time soon. Oh, well, when the ship goes
down, they will be on it too. But then, they have other countries to go back to. Do you have a
country to go back to, Michael? I don't.

--hide--


Marianne, just for clarification purposes... And it doesn't look like things are going to change any time soon. Oh, well, when the ship goesdown, they will be on it too. But then, they have other countries to go back to. Do you have a
country to go back to, Michael? I don't.

When you refer to the ''THEY' certainly you weren't referring to African American's ? They were captured, and chained and forced against their will, into slave labor in a foreign land. scratchchin Praying

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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: I didn't notice the italicization....
(Quote) William-607613 said:

Quote:
James-17080 said:



I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, he could have added a break between the two.





Fair enough. I apologize for being abrupt.

I think a fair accusation of socialism, and one that fits the Webster definition, is the administration's pushing the Chevy Volt.

As the government has bailed out both GM and Chrysler, it now has ownership of the companies. At the same time, it is pushing a product that costs over $40,000.00 but is being heavily subsidized through tax incentives (because nobody is going to lay out $40,000.00 for that car).

In other words, the car cannot stand on its own two feet in the face of open market competition, so the federal and state governments are providing tax incentives in order to sell it. (In other words, you and I are paying for this car.)

We're not talking about providing tap water, or an ambulance service, or a fire department. This is flat-out government meddling in an industry to use taxpayer dollars to make an unpopular car more attractive to a skeptical public. We are still under even-odd gas rationing here in NJ and NY after a storm that hit two weeks ago. There are homes that are not expected to have electricity until December, more than a month after this hurricane hit. Anyone with an electric car here would have nothing more than a 5,000 pound lawn decoration on their hands; it wouldn't be moving anywhere. Yet this administration, in its "infinite" (read: nonexistent) wisdom has no problems using taxpayer dollars to push this product out onto the streets. (And when these cars have all lost their juice on the NJ Turnpike or the Long Island Expressway, the very same people who pushed the product through the production process and off the showroom floor will have nothing more than a blank stare for us.)

James, you're taking this discussion to play a game of "Gotcha!" You're taking the mildest forms of government activity in your attempt to make a point that everyone is some sort of a socialist but at the same time you're not giving any credence to these examples of government overreach.


-Will

P.S. I made it clear in a response to someone else's post on this thread that this whole election reflects a reality that conservatives (until now) have probably been in denial about: they could not deliver the votes in this election and they cannot deliver them anymore. To put it another way, the culture war is over; the supporters of the government intervention in the Volt have won. You can continue to ignore the examples of government overreach because at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The government has no incentive to do anything different.




--hide--


Hi William et alia,

No need to apologize. I do have weak vision.

I'm not sure what is going on with the Volt. I understand it runs on both gas and electric.

Do I think this administration's wisdom is nonexistent? No. Can things be done better? Yes.

Am I playing a game of "Gotcha"? No, what I try and do is ask questions and try to get answers. This usually doesn't work, as most wizards are smart enough to see logical inconsistencies in their answers. Then they refuse to answer.

If Fox News can be used as a reliable metric, you are correct in saying that the right have been in denial. Still, I can't believe Fox was that stupid. They had to have seen what was coming. Fox did neither its brand nor its viewers any favors.

The Culture War was linked to the Volt? I didn't know that. Here's a question for you. You're upset about the Volt, and maybe there is something there. I'm upset about the chiselers on Wall Street which caused the crash in 2008. But when I suggested that we stiffen regulations, wizards here said, "Oh no! That would be socialism". Yeah, and violating the Seventh Commandment is just fine. If I didn't know better, I would have guessed that they all grew up in Chicago.

William, I need a little break. Talk to you later :-)

Jim ☺

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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) Sheila-371804 said: Marianne, just for clarification purposes...
(Quote) Sheila-371804 said:



Marianne, just for clarification purposes... And it doesn't look like things are going to change any time soon. Oh, well, when the ship goesdown, they will be on it too. But then, they have other countries to go back to. Do you have a
country to go back to, Michael? I don't.

When you refer to the ''THEY' certainly you weren't referring to African American's ? They were captured, and chained and forced against their will, into slave labor in a foreign land.

--hide--


Why did you put it in such bold type?

I was referring to the recent migrants to our shores who receive social services, and add to the national debt.

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11/12/2012 new

Charles, I agree about The American Conservative. For an even better example, try www.thenewamerican.com.

(Quote) Charles-512043 said: Thankfully, neo-conservatism in the GOP seems to be on the decline and is slowly being replace...
(Quote) Charles-512043 said:

Thankfully, neo-conservatism in the GOP seems to be on the decline and is slowly being replaced by something more representative of true "Old Right" conservatism. Given what Obama has been able to get away with in the foreign policy realm, I'm starting to suspect that over the course of the next 10-20 years that the imperialist, pro-war faction of the current conservative movement will slowly creep back into the Democratic party from whence it came.

True conservatism does still exist...one just has to know where to look. It certainly won't be found on cable news. One typically has to look to new media sources. http://www.theamericanconservative.com is one such example.
--hide--


God Bless, Jim

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11/12/2012 new

People want everything for nothing. They want the government to take care of them. Live off food stamps. They want National Healthcare. People are not worried if our country is in debt. People in America don't know what it is really like to live under socialism or communism.

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