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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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11/12/2012 new

(Quote) Marianne-100218 said: Why did you put it in such bold type? I was referring to the recent migrants t...
(Quote) Marianne-100218 said:



Why did you put it in such bold type?

I was referring to the recent migrants to our shores who receive social services, and add to the national debt.

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I just wanted to be clear on the nature of your question. BTW out of curiosity, so I am clear on your opinion, exactly what Immigrants were you referring to that need to arrive by boat ?

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11/13/2012 new
(Quote) James-17080 said: (Quote) William-607613 said: (Quote) James-17080 said: I d...
(Quote) James-17080 said:

Quote:
William-607613 said:

Quote:
James-17080 said:



I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, he could have added a break between the two.





Fair enough. I apologize for being abrupt.

I think a fair accusation of socialism, and one that fits the Webster definition, is the administration's pushing the Chevy Volt.

As the government has bailed out both GM and Chrysler, it now has ownership of the companies. At the same time, it is pushing a product that costs over $40,000.00 but is being heavily subsidized through tax incentives (because nobody is going to lay out $40,000.00 for that car).

In other words, the car cannot stand on its own two feet in the face of open market competition, so the federal and state governments are providing tax incentives in order to sell it. (In other words, you and I are paying for this car.)

We're not talking about providing tap water, or an ambulance service, or a fire department. This is flat-out government meddling in an industry to use taxpayer dollars to make an unpopular car more attractive to a skeptical public. We are still under even-odd gas rationing here in NJ and NY after a storm that hit two weeks ago. There are homes that are not expected to have electricity until December, more than a month after this hurricane hit. Anyone with an electric car here would have nothing more than a 5,000 pound lawn decoration on their hands; it wouldn't be moving anywhere. Yet this administration, in its "infinite" (read: nonexistent) wisdom has no problems using taxpayer dollars to push this product out onto the streets. (And when these cars have all lost their juice on the NJ Turnpike or the Long Island Expressway, the very same people who pushed the product through the production process and off the showroom floor will have nothing more than a blank stare for us.)

James, you're taking this discussion to play a game of "Gotcha!" You're taking the mildest forms of government activity in your attempt to make a point that everyone is some sort of a socialist but at the same time you're not giving any credence to these examples of government overreach.


-Will

P.S. I made it clear in a response to someone else's post on this thread that this whole election reflects a reality that conservatives (until now) have probably been in denial about: they could not deliver the votes in this election and they cannot deliver them anymore. To put it another way, the culture war is over; the supporters of the government intervention in the Volt have won. You can continue to ignore the examples of government overreach because at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The government has no incentive to do anything different.







Hi William et alia,

No need to apologize. I do have weak vision.

I'm not sure what is going on with the Volt. I understand it runs on both gas and electric.

Do I think this administration's wisdom is nonexistent? No. Can things be done better? Yes.

Am I playing a game of "Gotcha"? No, what I try and do is ask questions and try to get answers. This usually doesn't work, as most wizards are smart enough to see logical inconsistencies in their answers. Then they refuse to answer.

If Fox News can be used as a reliable metric, you are correct in saying that the right have been in denial. Still, I can't believe Fox was that stupid. They had to have seen what was coming. Fox did neither its brand nor its viewers any favors.

The Culture War was linked to the Volt? I didn't know that. Here's a question for you. You're upset about the Volt, and maybe there is something there. I'm upset about the chiselers on Wall Street which caused the crash in 2008. But when I suggested that we stiffen regulations, wizards here said, "Oh no! That would be socialism". Yeah, and violating the Seventh Commandment is just fine. If I didn't know better, I would have guessed that they all grew up in Chicago.

William, I need a little break. Talk to you later :-)

Jim ☺

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Good thoughts.
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11/13/2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said:I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, he could ...
(Quote) James-17080 said:

I didn't notice the italicization. I have weak vision. As you correctly pointed out, he could have added a break between the two.

I made a small omission. Back when this lad was in school, Federal loans were administered through the banks. Why? I don't know, but they were, and they added to the load overhead. Since Obama took office, students now get loans directly from the government. I didn't point this out to him, he brought the whole topic up on his own. I didn't say a word.

True, in the Great Lakes region, water doesn't have to be produced, but it does have to be made potable. Water has to be refined to make it drinkable. If you're getting water from the ocean, then water has to be distilled to remove the salt.

Here's another example. In 1867 the Merrill Act was passed that provided land and money for the establishment of land-grant universities. These universities were set up to train the engineers, scientists, and businessmen that would run the country. Few of us would deny that this is a public good. I also doubt that anyone would consider tbis "socialism". But here's a question to ponder. What would happen if such a bill were passed today? Do you believe that there would be no outcries from one side that the government was "trying to control higher education?

How about Social Security and Medicare? Are these forms of "socialism" ?

Nobody, including me, wants the government controlling every facet of our lives. But where does this "non-socialism" end and "socialism" begin?

James ☺

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Hello, James, and nice to meet you too.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "Why did America choose BIG government?" Then we don't have to debate the definitions of socialism. I think the more important questions are "How big should our government be?" and "What should be the role of government?" You mentioned public goods, and I would agree that the government should only be in the business of providing public goods. Also, by government I mean our federal government, which is further restrained by the U.S. Constitution, which Michael, the one who began this thread, is worried about preserving.

Higher education is a good example of something that I firmly believe the federal gov't should not be involved in. In the first place, nothing in the Constitution says or implies that the federal gov't should be involved in education at all. Thus, the Department of Education, I think, ought to be abolished. We had no such dep't prior to 1979 and yet we thrived as a nation without it. Secondly, I am one of those few who dare deny that higher education is a public good. One can make the case that grade school education is a public good, since everyone should receive some schooling, and also, a democratic gov't has an interest in preparing kids to be voters by the time they grow up. But even so, laws about education should be taken care of by the state governments and the feds shouldn't interfere. As for higher education, though, we know that not every goes to college. So, colleges and universities serve only certain people, not the whole public. Further, college level courses in high school, the internet and distance learning may make college, or at least the college campus, obsolete. Still, we have gov't funding college students, perpetuating the idea that higher ed is a public good. If the government were not involved, society would more easily transition to whatever it is that will modify or even replace college education as we know it today.

The Morrill Act was passed by the Republicans when they took control of Congress after the Democrats left to join the Confederacy. They also passed the Homestead Act, which they had wanted to pass for many years. Back then, it was the Republicans that were in favor of somewhat big government. And I do decry them for passing the Morrill Act, which began the process of the federal gov't taking more and more control of higher education. Land grant colleges have become these huge operations where young people waste about four years of their life and waste money paying for it, or the taxpayers pay for it. College grads have a hard time finding jobs as their degrees have become more and more watered down and worthless. Yet, due to gov't contantly subsidizing college, the college degree continues to get more expensive. Clearly, gov't involvement in higher ed has led to disaster.

As for social security and medicare, I also tend to think of these as unconstitutional and un-public goods, but that's just my opinion. The courts have recognized these as constitutional; and besides, it would be immoral to abruptly end these programs now, since people have been paying into them all their life. Further, I suppose one can argue that they serve the public as insurance, under which everybody is covered. On the other hand, social programs cannot really be said to be public goods if not everyone will need them or make use them. They dispense services to one individual or one family at a time, not to the public all at one time.

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11/13/2012 new

"The Recent Unpleasantness" by Fr. John McCloskey (used to run the catholic bookstore nearest to the White House)

www.truthandcharityforum.org

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11/13/2012 new

QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS (On Socialism) Pope Leo XIII

www.ewtn.com
Related catholic terms:
Subsidiarity Many of the positions in Rerum Novarum were supplemented by later encyclicals, in particular Pius XI's Quadragesimo Anno (1931), John XXIII's Mater et Magistra (1961), and John Paul II's Centesimus Annus (1991).

The principle of subsidiarity was first formally developed in the encyclical Rerum Novarum of 1891 by Pope Leo XIII, as an attempt to articulate a middle course between laissez-faire capitalism on the one hand and the various forms of communism, which subordinate the individual to the state, on the other. The principle was further developed in Pope Pius XI's encyclical Quadragesimo Anno of 1931, and Economic Justice for All by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

“ It is a fundamental principle of social philosophy, fixed and unchangeable, that one should not withdraw from individuals and commit to the community what they can accomplish by their own enterprise and industry. (Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, 79)
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11/13/2012 new

www.wbtv.com


From the article:


"The National Socialist Movement is the largest pro-White civil rights organization in America. It has chapters across America, and affiliates around the world."

A little history of National Socialism in America:


en.wikipedia.org



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11/13/2012 new

Last night a conservative consultant with Fox news referred to their conservative base of the republican party as "loonis and crazies of the right" ...and then this morning, the story below came out. Please read for yourself. You can also check the web.

GILBERT, Ariz -- A pregnant Gilbert woman is facing domestic assault charges, accused of running over her husband because he didn't vote in last week's election. Several witnesses called the Gilbert Police Department Saturday, to report a disturbing sight in the parking lot of a restaurant. Police said Holly Solomon's husband, Daniel, tried hiding from his wife behind a light pole to save his life.

"Witnesses reported that she circled the light poll several times, attempting to get close to him in the vehicle while she continued to yell at him," said Sgt. Jesse Sanger. "At some point he left the light poll and tried running away from the incident. At that point she did strike him with the vehicle pinning him underneath."

According to the police report, Solomon's husband told investigators his wife hates President Barack Obama, blaming the president for her family problems. When the husband told his wife he didn't participate in the election, that's when police said things got ugly.

The woman told police her husband gave her a dirty look during their argument, and then she admitted getting mad and chasing Daniel around the light poll in their car. "She was upset. She is stating that it was an accident. She meant to scare him, get close to him but not run him over. She accidentally hit the gas pedal instead of the brake according to her," said Sgt. Sanger She told investigators her parents would have to move to New Mexico because her husband did not vote. She said her parents were going to help raise their unborn child.

Daniel was rushed to a hospital in Scottsdale. He is recovering from a fractured pelvis and a tear in his bowels. He is expected to survive.


(Quote) Charles-211696 said: www.wbtv.com ...
(Quote) Charles-211696 said:

www.wbtv.com


From the article:


"The National Socialist Movement is the largest pro-White civil rights organization in America. It has chapters across America, and affiliates around the world."

A little history of National Socialism in America:


en.wikipedia.org



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11/13/2012 new

(Quote) Karis-410918 said: Last night a conservative consultant with Fox news referred to their conservative base of the rep...
(Quote) Karis-410918 said:

Last night a conservative consultant with Fox news referred to their conservative base of the republican party as "loonis and crazies of the right" ...and then this morning, the story below came out. Please read for yourself. You can also check the web.

GILBERT, Ariz -- A pregnant Gilbert woman is facing domestic assault charges, accused of running over her husband because he didn't vote in last week's election. Several witnesses called the Gilbert Police Department Saturday, to report a disturbing sight in the parking lot of a restaurant. Police said Holly Solomon's husband, Daniel, tried hiding from his wife behind a light pole to save his life.

"Witnesses reported that she circled the light poll several times, attempting to get close to him in the vehicle while she continued to yell at him," said Sgt. Jesse Sanger. "At some point he left the light poll and tried running away from the incident. At that point she did strike him with the vehicle pinning him underneath."

According to the police report, Solomon's husband told investigators his wife hates President Barack Obama, blaming the president for her family problems. When the husband told his wife he didn't participate in the election, that's when police said things got ugly.

The woman told police her husband gave her a dirty look during their argument, and then she admitted getting mad and chasing Daniel around the light poll in their car. "She was upset. She is stating that it was an accident. She meant to scare him, get close to him but not run him over. She accidentally hit the gas pedal instead of the brake according to her," said Sgt. Sanger She told investigators her parents would have to move to New Mexico because her husband did not vote. She said her parents were going to help raise their unborn child.

Daniel was rushed to a hospital in Scottsdale. He is recovering from a fractured pelvis and a tear in his bowels. He is expected to survive.

--hide--

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11/13/2012 new

(Quote) Karis-410918 said: Last night a conservative consultant with Fox news referred to their conservative base of the rep...
(Quote) Karis-410918 said:

Last night a conservative consultant with Fox news referred to their conservative base of the republican party as "loonis and crazies of the right" ...and then this morning, the story below came out. Please read for yourself. You can also check the web.

GILBERT, Ariz -- A pregnant Gilbert woman is facing domestic assault charges, accused of running over her husband because he didn't vote in last week's election. Several witnesses called the Gilbert Police Department Saturday, to report a disturbing sight in the parking lot of a restaurant. Police said Holly Solomon's husband, Daniel, tried hiding from his wife behind a light pole to save his life.

"Witnesses reported that she circled the light poll several times, attempting to get close to him in the vehicle while she continued to yell at him," said Sgt. Jesse Sanger. "At some point he left the light poll and tried running away from the incident. At that point she did strike him with the vehicle pinning him underneath."

According to the police report, Solomon's husband told investigators his wife hates President Barack Obama, blaming the president for her family problems. When the husband told his wife he didn't participate in the election, that's when police said things got ugly.

The woman told police her husband gave her a dirty look during their argument, and then she admitted getting mad and chasing Daniel around the light poll in their car. "She was upset. She is stating that it was an accident. She meant to scare him, get close to him but not run him over. She accidentally hit the gas pedal instead of the brake according to her," said Sgt. Sanger She told investigators her parents would have to move to New Mexico because her husband did not vote. She said her parents were going to help raise their unborn child.

Daniel was rushed to a hospital in Scottsdale. He is recovering from a fractured pelvis and a tear in his bowels. He is expected to survive.

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True to the liberalist socialist agenda of distraction! What does this have to do with anything? Even if it is true...it id definitely NOT the norm but an incident of domestic violence or illness that is in all people. Heck, all you have to do is go to one liberal web site and see DOZENS of death threats against people like Sarah Palin and the worst abusive language...so bad you can't even read it. Not to long ago there was a bomb threat against a family organization, etc., etc., etc. This has nothing to do with this topic!

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11/13/2012 new

[/quote)

True to the liberalist socialist agenda of distraction! What does this have to do with anything? Even if it is true...it is definitely NOT the norm but an incident of domestic violence or illness that is in all people. Heck, all you have to do is go to one liberal web site and see the norm of the party of DOZENS of death threats against people like Sarah Palin and the worst abusive language...so bad you can't even read it. Not too long ago there was a bomb threat against a family organization, etc., etc., etc. At any rate, you digging up this has nothing to do with this topic! As crazy as this woman (if true) is though, the one thing she got right is the socialist agenda isn't helping her.

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