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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Nov 17th 2012 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: And how are they going to feed their families and pay their mortgages now that they have no jobs...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



And how are they going to feed their families and pay their mortgages now that they have no jobs along with the office people and the managers as well?



As I noted before, based on the Union's own propaganda, the Company should have been liquidated when it first went into bankruptcy in 2004. Its continued operation since has only prolonged the agony.



Sorry it just does not fly Gustavo. The Union leaders had a choice, accommodate and possibly save the company or lose the jobs. The Union leaders, who can care less, chose to lose the jobs. It does not affect their income or power.



I would also add, that I don't believe the company was savable. It is obvious it was not savable in 2004 and things are no better now.



I hope that everyone affected has learned something and get a job quickly, although that is problematically with the rank amateurs we have running things in this country. But hey, we may soon reach the old Soviet Union's solution, the Government will pretend to pay everyone and in return everyone will pretend to work.

--hide--


That was my question, HOW would they accommodate? It would've been balanced on the backs of the working man.

As workers all we have is our labor. We don't own the capital, the machines, the factories or the supplies.

Thank God for the unemployment benefits these folks will receive while they look for work.
Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Gustavo-764558 said: That was my question, HOW would they accommodate? It would've been balanced on the backs o...
(Quote) Gustavo-764558 said:

That was my question, HOW would they accommodate? It would've been balanced on the backs of the working man.

As workers all we have is our labor. We don't own the capital, the machines, the factories or the supplies.

Thank God for the unemployment benefits these folks will receive while they look for work.
--hide--


First off, Gustavo, you sit down with management and start negotiations. (This is not groveling and begging for half wages) Management and labor both have responsibilities at the table. You are right in that all the workers have is their labor. But then they might also have ideas to bring forth. Maybe a new product, a more efficient way of porduction (I know that is a voo doo word for unions because it costs jobs) But the bottom line is that the company has to make a profit at the end os the day or it will not survive soyou sit down and figure out what each party can do to keep the company profitable.


When a company reaches a point where Hostess is, The owners who own the capital in the buildings and equipment will have borrowed against it in hopes of surviving the downturn. They have now lost their investment, possibly their retierment. As Ed says, everybody loses their job, not just the workers.


Yes, Thank God for unemployment benefits, whch is an insurance whos premiums are paid by the employer. Those premiums also rise whenever a claim is made.



Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: This is apparently a false rumor: www.snopes.com.
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

This is apparently a false rumor:

www.snopes.com

--hide--


I heard the man who turned his team around, and he said he would not agree with the requirements of the papers needed to
be signed before they worked. Snopes is turning this into a big thing. Whatever papers the man was
given, he did not want his team to accept those terms. So he got his crew and went home. Whatever happened in NJ after
he turned his team around is irrelevant and came after the fact.

Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Charles-211696 said: I agree with you that some unions have been co-opted. However,...
(Quote) Charles-211696 said:


I agree with you that some unions have been co-opted.


However, that large chain stores purposefully keep most of their employees at part-time is no canard. It is purposeful economic policy.

If you look at things from the perspective of the corporation, keeping the greater majority of your employees as part-timers is cheaper for the overall bottom line of the corporation, in terms of laws that have to be followed if employing people full-time.


Walmart used to have butchers. Honest-to-gosh butchers, where you could have a special cut made for you. Ten butchers in one store wanted to unionize. What did Walmart do? They eliminated the butcher section. At all of their stores. Simply decided they didn't need butchers anymore. Fired all those employees, just because a few employess were talking about unionizing.


I read an article within the past few days where a Walmart worker said they were only scheduled for 28 hours every week, at a rate of $8.90/hr. Do the math. This works out to $249.20/week, before taxes. For a single person with no children, those wages put them almost squarely on top of the poverty line. If you have a child, you are living below the poverty line. And if that person has to work a second job--which many part-timers have to do--just to make ends meet, then you get a second shock, because more taxes are taken out of your paycheck from your second job, just because you're working two jobs.


So, a person is a part-time worker. But, they're probably working upwards of 50-60 hours/week, because they have to work two (or more) jobs, just to get by. And this means they don't get to spend much time with their children. Why? Because it's better for the corporation's bottom line.


Do unions have PACs. Absolutely. But corporations and industries have PACs, too, and they line their respective politicians' pockets as equally, if not better. So don't go blaming one side without taking into account the entire picture. Remember, it was the Roberts' court that upheld Citizens United: en.wikipedia.org

In the end, though, I find it curious that you ultimately support unions.



--hide--


Charles what you are saying about how companies restrict worker's hours so they will not have to pay benefits is
true. Since the companies do it for their own bottom line, what laws do you think should be implemented to
limit this behavior, not eradicate it entirely, but limit it.

I thought perhaps based on the total number of hours put in by all workers, it would figure out a formula for how
many full time workers would have to be hired. EG; if a company had a total of 300 man hours with 10 employees,
then 50 percent of the hours had to filled by full time employees. So for the first 160 hours rounded off, it would
take 4 full time employees and the rest would be part time.

Do you have additional ideas how the government could step in and avoid this abuse to employees?

Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: And how are they going to feed their families and pay their mortgages now that they have ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

And how are they going to feed their families and pay their mortgages now that they have no jobs along with the office people and the managers as well?

As I noted before, based on the Union's own propaganda, the Company should have been liquidated when it first went into bankruptcy in 2004. Its continued operation since has only prolonged the agony.

Sorry it just does not fly Gustavo. The Union leaders had a choice, accommodate and possibly save the company or lose the jobs. The Union leaders, who can care less, chose to lose the jobs. It does not affect their income or power.

I would also add, that I don't believe the company was savable. It is obvious it was not savable in 2004 and things are no better now.

I hope that everyone affected has learned something and get a job quickly, although that is problematically with the rank amateurs we have running things in this country. But hey, we may soon reach the old Soviet Union's solution, the Government will pretend to pay everyone and in return everyone will pretend to work.

--hide--


Paul, something similar happened in NY with the Stella Dora plant. For years and years, the Stella Dora plant was on
the New York State Thruway (87) in the Bronx. Whenever you went down that road, you would have the smell of those
baked goods permeate the air. Not too many years ago, the company had a lot of trouble with the unions. So,
guess what, the company picked up and left the New York Area. Now when I pass by the plant, it is still dead and
empty and no jobs for anyone and no homemade smell of baked goods for the travelers on the Thruway. What a loss
because I still see Stella Dora on the shelves in the supermarket.

Nov 17th 2012 new
(Quote) Ron-481546 said: First off, Gustavo, you sit down with management and start negotiations. (This is not groveli...
(Quote) Ron-481546 said:




First off, Gustavo, you sit down with management and start negotiations. (This is not groveling and begging for half wages) Management and labor both have responsibilities at the table. You are right in that all the workers have is their labor. But then they might also have ideas to bring forth. Maybe a new product, a more efficient way of porduction (I know that is a voo doo word for unions because it costs jobs) But the bottom line is that the company has to make a profit at the end os the day or it will not survive soyou sit down and

figure out what each party can do to keep the company profitable.




When a company reaches a point where Hostess is, The owners who own the capital in the buildings and equipment will have borrowed against it in hopes of surviving the downturn. They have now lost their investment, possibly their retierment. As Ed says, everybody loses their job, not just the workers.




Yes, Thank God for unemployment benefits, whch is an insurance whos premiums are paid by the employer. Those premiums also rise whenever a claim is made.





--hide--


Labor did sit down with management. To the tune of an 8% pay cut. As working people they can only be expected to sacrifice so much. Are we headed towards the day when workers are expected to pay to keep a company solvent?

Ron, do you actually believe efficiency is a bad word to organized labor? Union jobs are on time and on schedule. Try to get productivity out of $9 hr tradesmen. Good luck. An old saying goes, "you pay peanuts you get monkeys."

Hostess was just another casualty of rapacious capitalism.
Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Marianne-100218 said: Charles what you are saying about how companies restrict worker's hours so they wi...
(Quote) Marianne-100218 said:



Charles what you are saying about how companies restrict worker's hours so they will not have to pay benefits is
true. Since the companies do it for their own bottom line, what laws do you think should be implemented to
limit this behavior, not eradicate it entirely, but limit it.

I thought perhaps based on the total number of hours put in by all workers, it would figure out a formula for how
many full time workers would have to be hired. EG; if a company had a total of 300 man hours with 10 employees,
then 50 percent of the hours had to filled by full time employees. So for the first 160 hours rounded off, it would
take 4 full time employees and the rest would be part time.

Do you have additional ideas how the government could step in and avoid this abuse to employees?

--hide--


Sure, I've got a couple ideas on how laws could be changed and government could intervene, but it would ultimately be pointless, because the company could simply close its doors and move manufacturing to a location where it would not have to abide by any laws or regulations. This is the threat labor ultimately faces.


I very much appreciate your sincereness at trying to find a balanced approach to the issue. However, as long as the bottom line remains "the bottom line," and you have corporate boards trying to satiate investors, I predict that labor will be squeezed more and more, because labor is the only part of the equation that can be squeezed.


I've never really seen any definitive data on small business in the U.S., despite all the talk small business gets. However, I would like to think the greater majority of small business owners are responsible stewards. Yes, they want to make a profit, but I would like to think small business owners readily share their wealth by providing living wages, benefits, etc. as they are able. I just do not see large corporation exhibiting any kind of stewardship.


There's a lot more I could say, but I will say a lot of my thinking about economic issues is grounded in the following: "For the love of money is the root of all evils" (1 Tim 6:10 NABRE).



Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Gustavo-764558 said: Labor did sit down with management. To the tune of an 8% pay cut. As working people they can o...
(Quote) Gustavo-764558 said:

Labor did sit down with management. To the tune of an 8% pay cut. As working people they can only be expected to sacrifice so much. Are we headed towards the day when workers are expected to pay to keep a company solvent?

Ron, do you actually believe efficiency is a bad word to organized labor? Union jobs are on time and on schedule. Try to get productivity out of $9 hr tradesmen. Good luck. An old saying goes, "you pay peanuts you get monkeys."

Hostess was just another casualty of rapacious capitalism.
--hide--

Hostess was a casualty of changing tastes and diets, not rapacious capitalism.

I remember when their products were fresh without a lot of chemicals and tasted great. The last time I had one of their cupcakes, many years ago, it tasted like it was made of plastic. Twinkies were never a favorite of mine, but then they used to have a real cream filling inside. Those also went the route of chemical enhancement. Wonder Bread may have built strong bodies 8 ways. But I never cared for its texture. It too went the way of chemical enhancement to prolong shelf life.

Hate to say it, today, unless you buy baked goods from a bakery serving only the local area, they just are not worth buying.

Any large national bakery is going to go the same way unless it figures out how to produce their products on a local basis and without chemical enhancements. And they must recognize that diet demands have changed and figure out how to adjust and serve those changes at a reasonable price.

Nov 17th 2012 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Hostess was a casualty of changing tastes and diets, not rapacious capitalism. I ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Hostess was a casualty of changing tastes and diets, not rapacious capitalism.



I remember when their products were fresh without a lot of chemicals and tasted great. The last time I had one of their cupcakes, many years ago, it tasted like it was made of plastic. Twinkies were never a favorite of mine, but then they used to have a real cream filling inside. Those also went the route of chemical enhancement. Wonder Bread may have built strong bodies 8 ways. But I never cared for its texture. It too went the way of chemical enhancement to prolong shelf life.



Hate to say it, today, unless you buy baked goods from a bakery serving only the local area, they just are not worth buying.



Any large national bakery is going to go the same way unless it figures out how to produce their products on a local basis and without chemical enhancements. And they must recognize that diet demands have changed and figure out how to adjust and serve those changes at a reasonable price.

--hide--


Agreed. The American public finally realized "foods" with the same shelf-life of motor oil may not be the most nutritious thing to eat.
Nov 17th 2012 new

(Quote) Gustavo-764558 said: Agreed. The American public finally realized "foods" with the same shelf-life of mot...
(Quote) Gustavo-764558 said:

Agreed. The American public finally realized "foods" with the same shelf-life of motor oil may not be the most nutritious thing to eat.
--hide--

They had one advantage --- they pre-embalmed you laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

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