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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said: I don't know...under the circumstances, at least in my diocese, I think the Church did every...
(Quote) Cheryl-409772 said:

I don't know...under the circumstances, at least in my diocese, I think the Church did everything they could except endorse Romney for tax/political reasons....and how can anyone not know how proabortion Obama is? I mean at least Catholics on here knew because we told them...and some of them not only voted for him but defended him. For instance, just the fact that Obama voted 3 x to pass the bill to kill a baby born alive...two bodies seperated so definitely murder but he voted for it....they knew this and justified their vote anyway with pure evil like it is the women's choice (and doctor) and they will be accountable....since when do we as a society not punish murder and instead even promote it?

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That is not what I said. Anyone who knew and understood those things and voted for Obama, would have probably committed a mortal sin.

But most "Catholics" did not know or understand, because on the whole, our Church leaders statements were so scholarly and confusing that they did not know and understand. And at the parish priest level, again on the whole, far too many did not even address the issues or were so wishy-washy because they were afraid to upset people that the word was not delivered clearly.

There were and are exceptions. Your Bishop and your pastor might well have been very clear. I don't know if you are in th Philly Diocese, but are close enough so that Archbishop Chaput's words, which were very clear, would not have been missed. Other people in these forums have named other Bishops and or Pastors who did an outstanding job.

But read the USCCB's official statement. It is not written so that the average person could easily understand the message. It goes out of its way not to antagonize.

Remember, the lay staff of the USCCB is basically very liberal in its outlook. So the original drafts of anything published are all written by them. Add to the mix the lawyers that look over everyone's shoulder to insure whatever comes out does not violate laws. Finally, remember that the Bishops, who have the final say, are educated well beyond the average person's level.

That virtually insures that anything coming out of there is going to be ignoring the KISS principle and the basic rule for writing for understanding; to write at the 9th or lower grade level.

An easy example is: A Catholic cannot vote for anyone who openly and publicly promotes abortion, same sex marriage. That is straight forward, easily understandable by all but the most obtuse. A person who heard that and could not connect the dots is probably unreachable without someone saying you cannot vote for "insert a name."

The official USCCB statement wasts a lot of words rambling on about voting your conscience introducing other extraneous things about social justice and and the exceptions that could allow someone to vote for a person who promotes the evils. The end result is that the average person ends up confused at to exactly what the Bishops are saying.

Reread the posts of the Obama supporters in the various treads here. A good portion of them are obviously intelligent and well educated. Yet it was not clear to them just what the Bishops were saying, even after they were pounded at by the rest of us. And that was for the simple reason that they could and did point to the USCCB"s official statement in support of their position. Sure part of that come from their predisposition. But what the Bishops had to say, had to be said in such a way that it was absolutely clear in order to break through their predispositions. The ambiguous statement that was published did not do that.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: That is not what I said. Anyone who knew and understood those things and voted for Ob...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:


That is not what I said. Anyone who knew and understood those things and voted for Obama, would have probably committed a mortal sin.

But most "Catholics" did not know or understand, because on the whole, our Church leaders statements were so scholarly and confusing that they did not know and understand. And at the parish priest level, again on the whole, far too many did not even address the issues or were so wishy-washy because they were afraid to upset people that the word was not delivered clearly.

There were and are exceptions. Your Bishop and your pastor might well have been very clear. I don't know if you are in th Philly Diocese, but are close enough so that Archbishop Chaput's words, which were very clear, would not have been missed. Other people in these forums have named other Bishops and or Pastors who did an outstanding job.

But read the USCCB's official statement. It is not written so that the average person could easily understand the message. It goes out of its way not to antagonize.

Remember, the lay staff of the USCCB is basically very liberal in its outlook. So the original drafts of anything published are all written by them. Add to the mix the lawyers that look over everyone's shoulder to insure whatever comes out does not violate laws. Finally, remember that the Bishops, who have the final say, are educated well beyond the average person's level.

That virtually insures that anything coming out of there is going to be ignoring the KISS principle and the basic rule for writing for understanding; to write at the 9th or lower grade level.

An easy example is: A Catholic cannot vote for anyone who openly and publicly promotes abortion, same sex marriage. That is straight forward, easily understandable by all but the most obtuse. A person who heard that and could not connect the dots is probably unreachable without someone saying you cannot vote for "insert a name."

The official USCCB statement wasts a lot of words rambling on about voting your conscience introducing other extraneous things about social justice and and the exceptions that could allow someone to vote for a person who promotes the evils. The end result is that the average person ends up confused at to exactly what the Bishops are saying.

Reread the posts of the Obama supporters in the various treads here. A good portion of them are obviously intelligent and well educated. Yet it was not clear to them just what the Bishops were saying, even after they were pounded at by the rest of us. And that was for the simple reason that they could and did point to the USCCB"s official statement in support of their position. Sure part of that come from their predisposition. But what the Bishops had to say, had to be said in such a way that it was absolutely clear in order to break through their predispositions. The ambiguous statement that was published did not do that.

--hide--


Actually, it's even better to write at the 6th grade level which is supposedly the level most newspapers are/were written. But then again, the 6th grade level of years past is probably now the 9th grade level.rolling eyes

11/23/2012 new

I do not believe that we should not judge or mix politics and religion together. However, I believe that both Romney and Obama have positive and negative sides as the roman catholic church leaders had/have and will have. It seems that everybody fights for a chair not for the best of society.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'm asking a theological question.


I read a lot of material prior to the election so I don't have the exact quote or author of the quote. But basically what the priest said was that when one votes for a pro-choice (pro-abortion) candidate when another (more pro-life) alternative is available, then that person (voter) cooperates with the evil done by that pro-choice candidate if they are voted into (or voted to remain) in public office. The reason behind this is because the Church recognizes that in the case of two evils it is better to chose the one whose platform is "lesser of the 2 evils." However, the issue of life is so fundamental that it is preferable to chose a candidate that is more prolife even if his other policies are intrinsically evil than it is to chose the other candidate whose platforms are more acceptable, but they are pro-choice.


Now for the question: "Are those who voted for Obama guilty of a mortal sin (IE cooperating with the evil he promulgates via abortion)?" And if they are, shouldn't they go to confession prior to receiving the Eucharist or be guilty of another mortal sin?

I ask these questions, because I am of the opinion that when we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist unworthily we bring condemnation upon ourselves. (1 Cor 11:29). I also believe that the fruits of that is a loss of faith. I am seeing a lot of people who have lost their faith.

Just wondering.



--hide--


I think one has to differentiate between material and formal support or aid given a person.

Here is an example demonstrating the difference:

A taxi driver transports a woman to an abortion clinic with neither hope nor intention that she procure an abortion. He is merely delivering her as a client who contracted business with him to transport her to a specific place.

This is material aid. The action of transporting fares is neutral.

A taxi driver transports a woman to an abortion clinic because he wants her to procure an abortion for which she is intending to go there. His is taking her not only to fulfill a contract, but also to fulfill the union of wills regarding the procurement of the abortion.

This is formal aid. Aligning one's self in union with commission of an intrinsic evil is evil action.

Sin is not committed by material aid in itself, but sin is committed by formal aid.

If an adult voted for Pres. Obama in spite of his party platform, for the purpose of moral benefit Mr. Obama offered in campaign promises, then he has offered only material support by his vote.

If an adult voted for Pres. Obama, in union with his party platform, for the purpose of immoral benefits Mr. Obama offered in campaign promises, then he has offered formal support by his vote.

That said, I don't know how a Pres. Obama supporter can stand before Christ at his particular judgment and offer a good enough reason to give material aid to a man who has no scruple about ending the lives of so many children before they are even born.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Joe-787295 said: YES Those that voted for Obama are also guilty of stup...
(Quote) Joe-787295 said:

YES


Those that voted for Obama are also guilty of stupidity but I don't think that's a sin.


If you are not willing to defend a right to life then all other "rights" are meaningless.

--hide--


Hi Joe et alia,

Hi Joe :-) We meet again. Must be kismet.

I vote "NO". Oh sure, I'm willing to vote to defend human life. I've done so all my life, and, considering the results, I should have saved myself the trouble. Indeed, Romney himself pointed out that anti-abortion legislation is not in his focus. Of course, later on, he "clarified" his views, only he did so in such a way as to reinforce the notion that this guy will say anything to get elected.

Both Democrats and Republicans should be glad that Romney is gone, and hopefully we will not hear from him again.
And yes, I've been here too long to know that that will not happen.

wink

James ☺

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) James-17080 said: Hi Joe et alia,Hi Joe :-) We meet again. Must be kismet.I vote "
(Quote) James-17080 said:



Hi Joe et alia,

Hi Joe :-) We meet again. Must be kismet.

I vote "NO". Oh sure, I'm willing to vote to defend human life. I've done so all my life, and, considering the results, I should have saved myself the trouble. Indeed, Romney himself pointed out that anti-abortion legislation is not in his focus. Of course, later on, he "clarified" his views, only he did so in such a way as to reinforce the notion that this guy will say anything to get elected.

Both Democrats and Republicans should be glad that Romney is gone, and hopefully we will not hear from him again.
And yes, I've been here too long to know that that will not happen.



James ☺

--hide--


Well, when given only two choices; the unborn had a much better chance with Romney than they did Obama. So many accuse Romney of flip flopping on the issue of abortion.

I pray everyday that more people flip flop to the side of life.

When a conservative changes positions, they are doing anything to get elected, when liberals do it they are open minded. How about Obama and gay marriage. Stated it was his position that he was against it, then wow; election #2 - comes out in support of it. What a sincere intellectual this man is.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Joe-787295 said: Well, when given only two choices; the unborn had a much better chance with Romney tha...
(Quote) Joe-787295 said:


Well, when given only two choices; the unborn had a much better chance with Romney than they did Obama. So many accuse Romney of flip flopping on the issue of abortion.

I pray everyday that more people flip flop to the side of life.

When a conservative changes positions, they are doing anything to get elected, when liberals do it they are open minded. How about Obama and gay marriage. Stated it was his position that he was against it, then wow; election #2 - comes out in support of it. What a sincere intellectual this man is.

--hide--
Plus it is a liberal lie that he flipped flopped on it....he did what he could in a very liberal state....MA was 4 liberals to every 1 conservative and the media ate him up there. We posted sites here that showed what he tried to do to promote the prolife laws....but people who wanted to vote for Obama on here still kept up with the lie telling...and they will have to face that some day when they meet their maker. Romney promised from day one of this election not to use tax dollars to fund planned parenthood...what more did anyone need who had their soul in the right place. At any rate, what he was trying to make his election about this time was about the economy...he kept directing it back to this since it is a mess and Obama's team kept attacking him on a personal level. I am really sick when I think of the people who voted for a man who not only believes it is ok to murder babies...inside or outside of the womb but a man who lied and attacked a candidate who is basically a really decent man with things like ads showing him killing people, etc. I do think these people knew better deep down and whether it is pride that kept them from acknowledging the bishops or a lack of being able to discern what they bishops were saying....well, that remains to be seen in the next life, I guess.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'm asking a theological question.


I read a lot of material prior to the election so I don't have the exact quote or author of the quote. But basically what the priest said was that when one votes for a pro-choice (pro-abortion) candidate when another (more pro-life) alternative is available, then that person (voter) cooperates with the evil done by that pro-choice candidate if they are voted into (or voted to remain) in public office. The reason behind this is because the Church recognizes that in the case of two evils it is better to chose the one whose platform is "lesser of the 2 evils." However, the issue of life is so fundamental that it is preferable to chose a candidate that is more prolife even if his other policies are intrinsically evil than it is to chose the other candidate whose platforms are more acceptable, but they are pro-choice.


Now for the question: "Are those who voted for Obama guilty of a mortal sin (IE cooperating with the evil he promulgates via abortion)?" And if they are, shouldn't they go to confession prior to receiving the Eucharist or be guilty of another mortal sin?

I ask these questions, because I am of the opinion that when we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist unworthily we bring condemnation upon ourselves. (1 Cor 11:29). I also believe that the fruits of that is a loss of faith. I am seeing a lot of people who have lost their faith.

Just wondering.



--hide--
At any rate, yes, to answer your original question, they are definitely guilty of a mortal sin.

11/23/2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

So here's one for the theologians among us. And no I'm not making a judgment call, I'm asking a theological question.


I read a lot of material prior to the election so I don't have the exact quote or author of the quote. But basically what the priest said was that when one votes for a pro-choice (pro-abortion) candidate when another (more pro-life) alternative is available, then that person (voter) cooperates with the evil done by that pro-choice candidate if they are voted into (or voted to remain) in public office. The reason behind this is because the Church recognizes that in the case of two evils it is better to chose the one whose platform is "lesser of the 2 evils." However, the issue of life is so fundamental that it is preferable to chose a candidate that is more prolife even if his other policies are intrinsically evil than it is to chose the other candidate whose platforms are more acceptable, but they are pro-choice.


Now for the question: "Are those who voted for Obama guilty of a mortal sin (IE cooperating with the evil he promulgates via abortion)?" And if they are, shouldn't they go to confession prior to receiving the Eucharist or be guilty of another mortal sin?

I ask these questions, because I am of the opinion that when we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist unworthily we bring condemnation upon ourselves. (1 Cor 11:29). I also believe that the fruits of that is a loss of faith. I am seeing a lot of people who have lost their faith.

Just wondering.



--hide--
I'm not qualified to answer that theologically, but we had a choice between a candidate who believes pre-born humans are to be taken out with the trash, and a candidate who was gung-ho for another unnecessary war. I voted for the next war sick to my stomach at the choice we had, since a third party vote was a vote for Obama.

11/23/2012 new

It depends. That is between them and God.

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