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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Dec 1st 2012 new

And don't forget blood donations.


Will we have "Catholic blood", "Lutheren blood", "Mormon blood" and "atheist blood"? Will a Baptist victim in a Baptist hospital be allowed to die because there is no "Baptist blood" available in the city?..... even though the Catholic hospital across the street has 20 pints of perfectly good "Catholic blood".


It seems to me that all of this would have to be addressed, because I think that it conflicts with the HHS mandates as they are currently conceived. This is insane.


Ed

Dec 3rd 2012 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said: Your position, much like others you have posted, is based on circular reasoning ...
(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said:


Your position, much like others you have posted, is based on circular reasoning which I have defined below.


Circular reasoning
(also known as paradoxical thinking[citation needed] or circular logic), is a logical fallacy in which "the reasoner begins with what he or she is trying to end up with".[1] The individual components of a circular argument will sometimes be logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true, and will not lack relevance. Circular logic cannot prove a conclusion because, if the conclusion is doubted, the premise which leads to it will also be doubted.[2]Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning.[3]on is based on circular logic.


America is still a democracy which means the American citizen has influence in government. You often amaze me, Chelsea, with your condescension and arrogance in these posts. I would be a bit more patient with your opinions if they were not presented as dogma, especially since I am unaware of your education or experience that would support your position that you have all the answers on any given subject.


-Elizabeth



--hide--

Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna, and everyone else that I've engaged on this issue:

I have been reviewing what I wrote in this thread in some detail since Elizabeth replied to me on my fallacious logic.

I have to beg everyone's pardon on this, because even though I couldn't see it upon the first few times I re-read my posts to you all, after a lot of study and reflection I do see my error. I am really embarrassed that I went on so long without seeing it and am sorry about my obstinacy. I really wish that I could take back what I wrote, but I can't, it's already published. However, I am disavowing it as my position: The IRS CAN effectively force people to pay by liquidation of property and such.

Thanks for your patience, Elizabeth, and for your time in defining the general type of erroneous reasoning into which I had fallen.

I am sorry, everyone...and hope that I can gain your pardon and forgiveness for the wrong I committed. If there is anything that I can do to offer you satisfaction, please message me.

Thanks again.

Dec 3rd 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna, and everyone else that I've engaged on this iss...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna, and everyone else that I've engaged on this issue:

I have been reviewing what I wrote in this thread in some detail since Elizabeth replied to me on my fallacious logic.

I have to beg everyone's pardon on this, because even though I couldn't see it upon the first few times I re-read my posts to you all, after a lot of study and reflection I do see my error. I am really embarrassed that I went on so long without seeing it and am sorry about my obstinacy. I really wish that I could take back what I wrote, but I can't, it's already published. However, I am disavowing it as my position: The IRS CAN effectively force people to pay by liquidation of property and such.

Thanks for your patience, Elizabeth, and for your time in defining the general type of erroneous reasoning into which I had fallen.

I am sorry, everyone...and hope that I can gain your pardon and forgiveness for the wrong I committed. If there is anything that I can do to offer you satisfaction, please message me.

Thanks again.

--hide--


Chelsea,


I've had a long day and I'm exhausted. I thought of waiting until tomorrow to respond to your post, but just didn't have the heart to wait. So, I hope I am able to write what is in my head and my heart with some reasonable verbiage.


I am impressed with your humility and the wisdom it took to guide you to reexamine your writing and then to post your apology. Good for you. I gladly accept your apology and encourage you to reevaluate your style of writing. There are ways to present your point and even argue it without alienating your audience. Take the lesson learned and grow from it. I have found that we treat others pretty much the way we treat ourselves. Based on some of your writings, I'm thinking you are pretty hard on yourself. I'm fifty-nine years old, Chelsea. My youngest child is four years older than you, and I screw up and learn something new everyday. We all do... but the key to growing and learning is to get back in the ballgame.


So I encourage you to dust yourself off and jump back in the discussion using your new found wisdom. I keep a saying posted in my office that says, "it is not how you act when everything is going great that defines you are, it is what you do after you are knocked down." So pick yourself up and get back in the conversation, Chelsea.


I'm wishing you all of God's blessings and I'm betting there are many others who are doing the same.


- Elizabeth

Dec 3rd 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna, and everyone else that I've engaged on this issue:I have ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:

Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna, and everyone else that I've engaged on this issue:

I have been reviewing what I wrote in this thread in some detail since Elizabeth replied to me on my fallacious logic.

I have to beg everyone's pardon on this, because even though I couldn't see it upon the first few times I re-read my posts to you all, after a lot of study and reflection I do see my error. I am really embarrassed that I went on so long without seeing it and am sorry about my obstinacy. I really wish that I could take back what I wrote, but I can't, it's already published. However, I am disavowing it as my position: The IRS CAN effectively force people to pay by liquidation of property and such.

Thanks for your patience, Elizabeth, and for your time in defining the general type of erroneous reasoning into which I had fallen.

I am sorry, everyone...and hope that I can gain your pardon and forgiveness for the wrong I committed. If there is anything that I can do to offer you satisfaction, please message me.

Thanks again.

--hide--

The important thing is the you learned. Something we must all do every day of our lives.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna . ...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said

Hi, Elizabeth and Joanna .

If there is anything that I can do to offer you satisfaction, please message me.

--hide--
Yea, paint my house . . .I am just kidding Chelsea, i think you are a bright, extremely intelligent, passionate and tenacious young woman. i also apologize if i were harsh. Take that same determination and apply "Truth" which we cannot do without listening to the Holy Spirit who speaks to us and enlightens us through the Church and Sacred Scripture.


God Bless you on your journey.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said: Chelsea, I've had a long day and I'm exhausted. I thought of ...
(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said:


Chelsea,


I've had a long day and I'm exhausted. I thought of waiting until tomorrow to respond to your post, but just didn't have the heart to wait. So, I hope I am able to write what is in my head and my heart with some reasonable verbiage.


I am impressed with your humility and the wisdom it took to guide you to reexamine your writing and then to post your apology. Good for you. I gladly accept your apology and encourage you to reevaluate your style of writing. There are ways to present your point and even argue it without alienating your audience. Take the lesson learned and grow from it. I have found that we treat others pretty much the way we treat ourselves. Based on some of your writings, I'm thinking you are pretty hard on yourself. I'm fifty-nine years old, Chelsea. My youngest child is four years older than you, and I screw up and learn something new everyday. We all do... but the key to growing and learning is to get back in the ballgame.


So I encourage you to dust yourself off and jump back in the discussion using your new found wisdom. I keep a saying posted in my office that says, "it is not how you act when everything is going great that defines you are, it is what you do after you are knocked down." So pick yourself up and get back in the conversation, Chelsea.


I'm wishing you all of God's blessings and I'm betting there are many others who are doing the same.


- Elizabeth

--hide--


Thank you, Elizabeth, Paul and Joanna for your patience. I can assure you that I will work very hard to prevent this ever happening again...

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement as well.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Not just provide their services to Catholics only, but every employee must also be Cathol...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Not just provide their services to Catholics only, but every employee must also be Catholic, no exceptions.

But if they employ only Catholics, they must be very careful that they are not violating non-discrimination laws as they apply to employment. They could be exempt from those laws, but the line, in many cases, is very thin and easy to unwittingly step over.

A Catholic Hospital who employed only Catholics and serviced only Catholics has another trap. Most state's have laws requiring a hospital with an emergency room to service anyone with a true emergency. So if they obey that law and provided emergency service to a non-catholic, they would no longer be exempt from the HHS rules.

The point I am making is that there are so many legal booby traps. Its like putting a person into a maze. If they successfully maneuver through the maze they come out free and clear. But if they choose the wrong turns they will end up dead. Then as the person progresses through the maze and selects a correct turn, you block that path to force them back where they have to make a wrong choice and you keep doing that until they die.

That is the legal framework that has been created over a long time. Not necessarily planned with that purpose in mind. Nevertheless, that is the legal minefield that exists.

--hide--


this is hysterical. try to make some sense next time around. if you didn't go to law school, it might be best to drafting avoid legal opinions.

Dec 4th 2012 new

(Quote) Joanna-615441 said: KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT? Bwhahahahahahaha won't happen! I spend my day tolerating and loving at w...
(Quote) Joanna-615441 said:

KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT? Bwhahahahahahaha won't happen! I spend my day tolerating and loving at work. I want peace and loving at home. A leftie wouldn't do and God knows my heart!

--hide--


sois belle et tais-toi. tongue

Dec 5th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said:out David? this is hysterical. try to make some sense next time around. if you didn't ...
(Quote) David-364112 said:out David?


this is hysterical. try to make some sense next time around. if you didn't go to law school, it might be best to drafting avoid legal opinions.

--hide--

What are you talking about and what is hysterical about it, David?

The already existing religious exemption in the HHS mandate specifically grants that exemption only to religious organizations who only employ members of that particular faith and who provide services only to members of that particular faith.

That is not my opinion, legal or otherwise. That is FACT.

Although I am not a lawyer, I was writing legal briefs before you were born, and one of the jobs I held during my working years was a legal compliance auditor. The State Attorney General required staff attorneys assigned to the Community Colleges of the State to read one of my opinions, which was part of the findings of my audit, as an example of a properly written legal brief.

While in the Army performing one of those "in addition to your normal duties" I was assigned as defense Counsel for Special Court Martials. The Judge Advocate of the Post, sent his staff attorneys to observe me when I tried a case, to see how a proper defense was conducted.

To quote your own statement back to you, your comments are hysterical. If you don't know what you re talking about, don't parade that lack of knowledge by making irrelevant comments. Keep quiet and people might think you know something.

Dec 6th 2012 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: What are you talking about and what is hysterical about it, David? The already ex...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



What are you talking about and what is hysterical about it, David?



The already existing religious exemption in the HHS mandate specifically grants that exemption only to religious organizations who only employ members of that particular faith and who provide services only to members of that particular faith.



That is not my opinion, legal or otherwise. That is FACT.



Although I am not a lawyer, I was writing legal briefs before you were born, and one of the jobs I held during my working years was a legal compliance auditor. The State Attorney General required staff attorneys assigned to the Community Colleges of the State to read one of my opinions, which was part of the findings of my audit, as an example of a properly written legal brief.



While in the Army performing one of those "in addition to your normal duties" I was assigned as defense Counsel for Special Court Martials. The Judge Advocate of the Post, sent his staff attorneys to observe me when I tried a case, to see how a proper defense was conducted.



To quote your own statement back to you, your comments are hysterical. If you don't know what you re talking about, don't parade that lack of knowledge by making irrelevant comments. Keep quiet and people might think you know something.



--hide--


Impressive! clap clap
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