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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Patricia-920802 said: I have not had the opportunity to vote on this issue in my state and I will probably be in the minori...
(Quote) Patricia-920802 said: I have not had the opportunity to vote on this issue in my state and I will probably be in the minority when I say this but .... I'm not sure I would vote against it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but the church is the entity that provides the sacrament of marriage. The state only gives you a marriage license, by application, even for those not "marrying" in any church. As the Catholic Church decides whom it will marry I'm not as concerned with what the states does. Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's etc. etc. I am not condoning it, only saying that someone calling themselves "married" does not change what I know marriage to be according to the church no more than someone else calling themselves patricia makes me any less so. At the end of the day I agree with Celia, pray for them ...
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One of the difficulties with voting to say that marriage can include gay couples is the fact that it can end up forcing priests to perform ceremonies which violate their conscience. If gay"marriage" is defined as acceptable, or a right, then anyone with the proper authority will need to perform that wedding or they will be discriminating. It's happened in other countries, I believe Canada is one of them, so it would most certainly happen here. It doesn't just affect the couples involved, which is an arguement that was frequently brought forth here when the ammendment was added to the ballot.

12/04/2012 new
The gay activists are an arrogant lot who have repeatedly shown they cannot be trusted. Today they say that churches will not have to "marry" two people of the same sex, but once it is legal in all 50 states they will want churches that refuse to do so ostracized the way churches that don't do interracial marriages are.

These people are untrustworthy.
12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: A question to ask is if there's really a difference between acceptance of people with a same se...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

A question to ask is if there's really a difference between acceptance of people with a same sex orientation and Catholic teaching. The Church expects us to practice charity and be compassionate toward others. At the same time, the Church does not expect us to accept acts that are immoral and against the Lord's will.

Attraction to another person can happen in a homosexual manner, also a heterosexual manner. The Commandments all of us are called to lead lives of chastity, no matter what our orientation might be. The issue is sex outside of marriage -- for everyone.

The nature of same-sex attraction is not clearly known or understood. We can't be condemning people just because of their orientation. We're not sure if the orientation is a choice or not. It's their actions that are to be considered, and the old message: "Love the sinner; hate the sin."

All people are entitled to God-given rights, and those must be respected and defended. Can we defend immoral acts though? The simple answer is "No."

Unfortunately, gay issues are permeating the media and nearly everything else we can think of. We're being asked to accept their actions as being "normal". If we stand for chastity and sex within the boundaries of marriage, we cannot in good faith support their actions, gay marriages and/or civil unions.

Clearly homosexual people face great difficultie in their relationships with others. But, keep in mind, that each of us has a cross to bear, and that cross comes in many forms. This is true --- for both gays and straights.

If we speak against same-sex marriage or efforts to promote living an openly gay lifestyle, we are branded as homophobic. Unfortunately, this is their way of making us look like the bad guys. In our daily lives, many, if not most of us, have come to know, become acquainted with, or have a relative who is drawn to the same gender. We don't need to shun them, but we cannot lend support to their lifestyle. If they are chaste, or trying their best to be, they deserve our support.

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Ray, I agree! Well said. God bless, Veronica theheart

12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Sally-894891 said: The way I see it is to respect everyone's choice in life. I see it as a lifestyle I don't...
(Quote) Sally-894891 said:

The way I see it is to respect everyone's choice in life. I see it as a lifestyle I don't agree on. I don't agree with many other religions, I don't agree with people having premarital sex, I don't agree with people using provanity and I don't agree with people who are pursuing their homosexual feelings. But it is not my place to judge any of these people, all I can do is decide what is right for me and let people decide what's right for them. I remember a girl who was living with her boyfriend and she asked about how I look at relationships and love. She asked so I gave her my view. She seemed upset and asked me if she thinks she is going to hell for living with her boyfriend and not being married. I told her "I am not God, I can not judge what is right or wrong for you. You asked for my opinion and how I want to live my life when it comes to love". So the same thing goes with homosexuality. I remember in high school having a couple of teachers who were gay or lesbian. I then and now don't agree with their lifestyle. But they were excellent teachers and very nice. They were good in their job, what their personal life was, was non of business. I do draw a line to what extend I let people in my personal life. But always be friendly, respectful and treat people equal no matter how they live their lives. Only God can judge!

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The fact is we DO judge -- probably more than we realize. If we didn't make judgments, we could take the first available person of the opposite gender and marry him or her.

We can't force our beliefs upon others -- that's been proven throughout history. But...we can certainly make our position known and set an example. With certain issues that affect society, we have an obligation to actively promote the Truth. Abortion would be such an issue. Can we say as Joe Biden did that "I believe abortion is morally wrong but I wouldn't force my belief upon others." (Paraphrased) When true evils exist, we are obligated to speak out. Note that we are not condemning the person -- just their action.

The following often used quote also rings true: "All that evil needs to triumph is for good people to remain silent."

There's a balance that has to be found. ALL people are to be allowed their human rights -- they aren't granted by us, or by any government. They're the inalienable rights given to us by our Creator. You brought up the situation about some of your teachers. You showed them the respect they were due as leaders in their classroom, and as long as they were teaching the subjects properly. What would have been the reaction if they used their authority figures to promote a gay agenda? Would not your reaction have been different?

Jesus mingled with sinners -- not difficult to do because that's what all of us are. He also advised people to "go and sin no more." He gave His respect to others as they deserved, but did not condone their actions, and clearly made that fact known to them.

12/04/2012 new

The problem that I have with this is the concept (heavily promoted by the liberal media) that homosexuality is the "new normal", and that the rest of the 97% of the population who is not homosexual MUST accept it as normal. The majority of people (I believe) consider homosexuality to be abnormal and unnatural beyond any religious considerations. The Gay community has been very successful in using the liberal media to portray anti-gay sentiment as a form of racism, and those who oppose same-sex marriage as bigots.

The fact remains that most every religion that I know of specifically documents homosexuality as a grave sin, and that includes Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Further, and even more disturbing, is the concept that religious institutions are being forced into situations that oppose their beliefs in the name of "civil rights" with no consideration or respect for the concept of religious freedom. It is clear that governments in the western world are actively dismantling religious freedom, and as Christians we must make ourselves aware and fight it every step of the way. If it were up to me, any homosexual couple attempting to be married in the Catholic Church would be excommunicated, and therefore ineligible to receive the sacrament of marriage. Just my 2 cents.

12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: The fact is we DO judge -- probably more than we realize. If we didn't make judgments, we could...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

The fact is we DO judge -- probably more than we realize. If we didn't make judgments, we could take the first available person of the

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I think it's just the American mentality I guess in comparison to my mentality. I was raised to be open-minded and to respect everyone'sdecision to the extend where it doesn't hurt me or it doesn't hurt anyone else it's their life not mine and God will judge them for it. I was raised to focus on my life rather than focusing on other people's life's and decisions. In America it's still a huge thing when someone gay is for example in the government. We don't have that here as there are actually quite a few people in the Dutch government that are gay. I, personally, with my beliefs and morals don't like it. Let there not be any misunderstanding about it! But what do you expect to do about it? discriminate them from society, not hiring them, not giving them a future?? I specifically said not to ever be afraid to express your opinion. But there's a time and place for everything. In the classroom when they were teaching us the facts about the subject it was and is not a time and place to express my opinion about it. And I'm not sure how it works in America, but here under no means is a teacher allowed to use their authority to push on their beliefs and opinions. They are there to do their job and not have their personal life involved.

I also don't really understand how you can judge?? Honestly I don't judge anyone and it's rather saddening to hear that you do, or the American society does. The forum is a time and place where one can express their opinion, so I will. I just wonder if you judge whether you have understood God's words? All you can do is judge yourself, see other people's actions and think very deeply how this applies or doesn't apply to you. I truly believe actions speak louder than words, and I truly believe we were not placed on this earth to push our own beliefs in other people throats. It's the 21st century, people are more than capable of finding out the truth for themselves. If you go and openly tell them that what they are doing is wrong, first of they will not listen as it is human nature too do exactly the oppisote and secondly what you are doing is not letting them respect you. I have ALWAYS had respect from other people. No matter what their beliefs were or their actions in life, and I think it's because I respected them. And it just keeps surprising me that the country that is supposed to be the number 1 multi-cultural and free country is so divided in groups and unrespectful to other people's opinion and lifestyle. Let your way of life change people, and honestly this has happened to me. That through my way of living people were curious wanted to know more and learned and changed from me because they seeked the knowledge themselves.

The evil in this world is growing and growing, and good people can not change that. Don't you believe in our savior coming? Our savior will come and he is the only one that can change the evil in good. Just focus on yourself and your children instead of focusing on other people.

Again I don't think anyone in this forum agree's with me on this subject, as I can tell by no one liking my posts in this thread. But that's ok. I know myself and I know my thoughts and this is my opinion. Agree or don't agree with it, but I'm not going to waste more energy on this subject. I said and made my views clear enough I think.

12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Joachim-908165 said: My mind is troubled. I don't like to see any individual of sex, race or creed persecuted. I...
(Quote) Joachim-908165 said:

My mind is troubled. I don't like to see any individual of sex, race or creed persecuted. I know and understand why the practice of homosexuality is wrong; I just feel sympathetic towards those who are blinded by society's teachings that it is an "accepted sexual orientation". How should I balance the concern I have for homosexuals while strictly adhereing to the Church's teachings?

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Have compassion for them and love them. Don't laugh at them and don't let yourself judge them as damned. Pray for them. Pray Pray pray.

12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Veronica-56352 said: Ray, I agree! Well said. God bless, Veronica
(Quote) Veronica-56352 said:



Ray, I agree! Well said. God bless, Veronica

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Thank you, Veronica. hug

12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Sally-894891 said: I think it's just the American mentality I guess in comparison to my mentality. I was...
(Quote) Sally-894891 said:



I think it's just the American mentality I guess in comparison to my mentality. I was raised to be open-minded and to respect everyone'sdecision to the extend where it doesn't hurt me or it doesn't hurt anyone else it's their life not mine and God will judge them for it. I was raised to focus on my life rather than focusing on other people's life's and decisions. In America it's still a huge thing when someone gay is for example in the government. We don't have that here as there are actually quite a few people in the Dutch government that are gay. I, personally, with my beliefs and morals don't like it. Let there not be any misunderstanding about it! But what do you expect to do about it? discriminate them from society, not hiring them, not giving them a future?? I specifically said not to ever be afraid to express your opinion. But there's a time and place for everything. In the classroom when they were teaching us the facts about the subject it was and is not a time and place to express my opinion about it. And I'm not sure how it works in America, but here under no means is a teacher allowed to use their authority to push on their beliefs and opinions. They are there to do their job and not have their personal life involved.

I also don't really understand how you can judge?? Honestly I don't judge anyone and it's rather saddening to hear that you do, or the American society does. The forum is a time and place where one can express their opinion, so I will. I just wonder if you judge whether you have understood God's words? All you can do is judge yourself, see other people's actions and think very deeply how this applies or doesn't apply to you. I truly believe actions speak louder than words, and I truly believe we were not placed on this earth to push our own beliefs in other people throats. It's the 21st century, people are more than capable of finding out the truth for themselves. If you go and openly tell them that what they are doing is wrong, first of they will not listen as it is human nature too do exactly the oppisote and secondly what you are doing is not letting them respect you. I have ALWAYS had respect from other people. No matter what their beliefs were or their actions in life, and I think it's because I respected them. And it just keeps surprising me that the country that is supposed to be the number 1 multi-cultural and free country is so divided in groups and unrespectful to other people's opinion and lifestyle. Let your way of life change people, and honestly this has happened to me. That through my way of living people were curious wanted to know more and learned and changed from me because they seeked the knowledge themselves.

The evil in this world is growing and growing, and good people can not change that. Don't you believe in our savior coming? Our savior will come and he is the only one that can change the evil in good. Just focus on yourself and your children instead of focusing on other people.

Again I don't think anyone in this forum agree's with me on this subject, as I can tell by no one liking my posts in this thread. But that's ok. I know myself and I know my thoughts and this is my opinion. Agree or don't agree with it, but I'm not going to waste more energy on this subject. I said and made my views clear enough I think.

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Why is evil in this world growing and growing? Because we're becomming too wimpy to stand up for what is moral and just. That's just what the opposition hopes to accomplish. Not speaking out leads to acceptance and tolerance of these evils. It's true that we will always have some evil on earth because of the sinful nature of man. That doesn't mean throwing in the towel. We need to do our best to minimize the problems. If we each take care of our back yard, that's an accomplishment. To say "to each his own", or "it's none of my business", or "live and let live" is just a cop-out. People who ask us to be open minded, especially when we have the Truth on our side, are asking us to compromise.

We ARE obligated to be respectful to other human beings; there's never been a question about that. Our Creator endowed each of us with certain human rights which shouldn't be violated. But do these rights include choosing a lifestyle that is corrupt and immoral? Those aren't God-given, but they are the result of abusing free-will given to us by the Almighty. Life is about choices; we make judgments about something being good or bad for us. Can we judge in the sense of the Good Lord's judgment? No. We can't determine or predict another's salvation.

Our Lord has handed down His Commandments; given us His words in the Bible; and enriched us with Sacred Tradition. Actions that depart from those are morally wrong or intrinsically evil. Is the person performing such acts committing a sin? That's something we can't say with certainty, but we can judge the action itself to be wrong.

True about your teachers -- a class setting wouldn't be the time or place to delve into their personal lives. However, you no doubt are aware of the fact that homosexuality is being taught in elementary schools as an acceptable, normal way of life. There are children's books about kids having 2 fathers or 2 mothers (same-sex relationships). Some teachers have promoted their gay agenda, without bringing up any statement as to the morality of such a lifestyle. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Please see my earlier post about dealing with gay people. They are our sisters and brothers, but we still need to distinguish what is moral and what is not. "Anything goes" or "whatever" aren't appropriate to the Catholic way of life. I hope you will think about this further, and what will happen to society if there are same-sex unions that don't produce children, increased use of birth control, and so on. We already see the damage that abortion has caused (over and above the killing of innocent lives issue). With a drastically decreased birth rate, there are too few young people to support the older generations. Once a birth rate falls below a certain level, a country is in danger.

We have the present -- but we also have to lay solid groundwork for the future.

12/04/2012 new

(Quote) Andrea-368827 said: We had a marriage amendment vote in Minnesota so it was a public discussion. I know I have some ...
(Quote) Andrea-368827 said:

We had a marriage amendment vote in Minnesota so it was a public discussion. I know I have some nieces who think I am wrong for voting marriage as man and woman. So this issue becomes very personal across the board.

I search my mind for the solution. I don't have the answer.

However, what if they didn't use the word marriage, but something other? domestic partner or committed friendship - we don't have to believe those words imply sexual context, their own business. And this would provide singles across the board a way to promote what is good - friendship.

In general, many people need someone else living with or looking out for them, especially as family size decreases - I think? I don't know if that is just misleading. I think chaste committed friendships in the secular world, could be sort of like endorsing, religious vocations??

I realize problems probably abound in my attempt at a peacemakers solutions.

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I agree. I suppport civil unions which would accord same sex couples most of the same legal rights as marriage but without calling it a marriage.

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