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This room is for supportive and informative discussion about divorce and/or the annulment process. All posters must have been previously divorced or annulled.

Saint Eugene De Mazenod is patron of dysfunctional families & Saint Fabiola obtained a divorce from her first husband prior to devoting her life to charitable works.
Learn More: Saint Eugene De Mazenod and Saint Fabiola

12/05/2012 new
(Quote) Daniel-634934 said: I want so bad to be annulled, but I hear stories here on CM which both scare and make me discouraged. It seems...
(Quote) Daniel-634934 said:

I want so bad to be annulled, but I hear stories here on CM which both scare and make me discouraged. It seems when I am making progress it gets halted.

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Sometimes God provides the extra time for things to happen because he is working on healing out hearts. When my son passed away in May 2011 it took nine months to get the official death certificate from the state. And I can honestly say now the extra time was a blessing in my life. I prayed constantly for not only myself but also for my parents and all those affected by my loss. Since he was premature I did not even have to wait nine months for his birth, but having that time of waiting can be a spiritual blessing if you need that. A time to reflect, pray and allow God to fill in those empty spits that only he can touch......
12/05/2012 new

(Quote) Meg-920823 said: I understand that the annulment investigation is to determine whether a Sacramental marriage ev...
(Quote) Meg-920823 said:


I understand that the annulment investigation is to determine whether a Sacramental marriage ever existed. Were there impediments that prevented one or both from making a kmowledgeable, mature, life time commitment. If one has mental issues, is deceptive with himself and/or others, emotionally immature etc., then perhaps there never was a marriage. I liken it to a real estate sale in which the seller doesn't own the house but claims to. He can't sell it to you because he does not have that ability. Another example would be of a twelve year old making a lifetime vow. (Some adults are emotionally twelve years old although they may have learned to mask it.)

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This is a very good description. The only change that needs to be made is to change the word 'sacramental' to 'valid'. If both spouses are baptized Christians, the two are one and the same; however, if either (or both) were not baptized at the time of the marriage the marriage may be valid if there was no defect of consent and no impediments were present, but it will not be sacramental.

Stating it another way: if the marriage was valid at its inception, a decree of nullity can't be issued regardless of what happens after that. The tribunal will look at events during the marriage for evidence of impediments or lack of valid consent at the inception, but the events don't change the marital status.

The term 'annulment' is misleading for many because it sounds like a verb -- that is, the the status of the marriage is being changed (annulled); in actuality it is a noun, being short for 'decree of nullity' (a statement that the marriage was null at its inception).

12/05/2012 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: This is a very good description. The only change that needs to be made is to change the w...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

This is a very good description. The only change that needs to be made is to change the word 'sacramental' to 'valid'. If both spouses are baptized Christians, the two are one and the same; however, if either (or both) were not baptized at the time of the marriage the marriage may be valid if there was no defect of consent and no impediments were present, but it will not be sacramental.

Stating it another way: if the marriage was valid at its inception, a decree of nullity can't be issued regardless of what happens after that. The tribunal will look at events during the marriage for evidence of impediments or lack of valid consent at the inception, but the events don't change the marital status.

The term 'annulment' is misleading for many because it sounds like a verb -- that is, the the status of the marriage is being changed (annulled); in actuality it is a noun, being short for 'decree of nullity' (a statement that the marriage was null at its inception).

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Thanks, Jerry. My understanding of the word Sacramental here relates to whether the Church determines a marriage existed at all, since marriage is a Sacrament. I guess valid and Sacramental go hand in hand.

12/05/2012 new

(Quote) Meg-920823 said: Thanks, Jerry. My understanding of the word Sacramental here relates to whether the Church dete...
(Quote) Meg-920823 said:


Thanks, Jerry. My understanding of the word Sacramental here relates to whether the Church determines a marriage existed at all, since marriage is a Sacrament. I guess valid and Sacramental go hand in hand.

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Only when both parties to the marriage are baptized Christians, as baptism is a prerequisite for all of the other sacraments. Due to the nature of marriage, it cannot be sacramental for one spouse and not so for the other. Because the nature of marriage is rooted in the natural law, which applies to all men, not Christian theology, it is possible for non-Christians to form a valid, permanent, marriage and thus not be free to marry in the Church following a divorce. This is why anyone who was married and divorced who wishes to marry in the Church must receive a decree of nullity before doing so, regardless of the circumstances of the first marriage or the faith/baptismal status of the spouses (unless, or course, the former spouse has died).

12/05/2012 new

I felt such a RELIEF when the anullement got through. We were practicing Catholics, very involved in the Parish... and it pained me so much to go against all I believed in. I still have to tell myself: "If the Chuch anulled it, then there was really no amount of praying that could have saved what had never taken place".

I'd advise to "do your best, and God do the rest". Be in Peace with HIM. At the end, what is important is not how others perceive you, but your relationship with HIM. Even the Institution of the Chuch (unless the Pope is speaking Ex Catedra) is made out of human beings who work with the information they get - in the case of the anullment process.

12/06/2012 new

Dana,


Two things. First I apologize for not responding earlier. Must have missed your response and didn't see it until just now. Second to your question. From what I can see there is a very clear defining point between what you've done with your initial advocate and the actual formal signing. My formal petition included an oath saying everything was truthful that I had to sign and mail back.

Everything prior to that was done with my initial advocate. My opinion of him is he's just a man, like me, and in order to get any sort of response I pretty much had to keep asking him what was happening. They are all busy and responding back to a petitioner didn't seem to catch his attention as I hoped it would. But I learned how to work through that.

I eventually sent the formal petition sent to the local chancery and copied it, by the way, to my initial advocate. Since then there has not been any form of communication what-so-ever from either entity. I've been trying to be extra patient but may eMail both to get them to send some kind of response.

However I do know the chancery did receive my formal petition and they have taken some action. I was talking to one of my friends for a totally different reason and he told me that he had received his questionnaire and was preparing his response. So I know progress is being made.

Be aware though that, at least here, they will make a minimum of 3 attempts to get your former spouse to respond before they move forward. They sent a questionnaire, wait 30 days, send another, wait 30 more days, send a third one, and then wait another 30 days for a response before they can move forward. So it does seem like a lot of waiting during which it probably doesn't seem horribly important to them to communicate to you. They've let me know the procedure in advance and may figure that's really all that needs to be communicated until the next step occurs. I've also been told they will eMail or call if they have further questions.

That's just a summary of my experience so far. Maybe you'll have better luck communicating in your area. Good luck and God Bless.

12/06/2012 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) Meg-920823 said: I understand that the annulment investigation ...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

Quote:
Meg-920823 said:


I understand that the annulment investigation is to determine whether a Sacramental marriage ever existed. Were there impediments that prevented one or both from making a kmowledgeable, mature, life time commitment. If one has mental issues, is deceptive with himself and/or others, emotionally immature etc., then perhaps there never was a marriage. I liken it to a real estate sale in which the seller doesn't own the house but claims to. He can't sell it to you because he does not have that ability. Another example would be of a twelve year old making a lifetime vow. (Some adults are emotionally twelve years old although they may have learned to mask it.)


This is a very good description. The only change that needs to be made is to change the word 'sacramental' to 'valid'. If both spouses are baptized Christians, the two are one and the same; however, if either (or both) were not baptized at the time of the marriage the marriage may be valid if there was no defect of consent and no impediments were present, but it will not be sacramental.

Stating it another way: if the marriage was valid at its inception, a decree of nullity can't be issued regardless of what happens after that. The tribunal will look at events during the marriage for evidence of impediments or lack of valid consent at the inception, but the events don't change the marital status.

The term 'annulment' is misleading for many because it sounds like a verb -- that is, the the status of the marriage is being changed (annulled); in actuality it is a noun, being short for 'decree of nullity' (a statement that the marriage was null at its inception).

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Jerry, I've read and re-read and while your post may be factual, I find it highly confusing! Worse, I thought I saw the other day where you corrected Lisa Duffy on the use of "valid" and said it should be "sacramental."

I'd just like to remind you that this is a very painful topic, brother, and according to the rules at the top of the page ("This room is for supportive and informative discussion about divorce and/or the annulment process. All posters must have been previously divorced or annulled."), I wonder why you are even posting in here?

For you, it's all black and white with no emotion or children attached to the process. In my own situation, there are no documents which can be produced to independently verify that my spouse was a baptised Christian. Given that he is a convicted felon and was when I married him, given his documented behavior of theft and fraud during our brief marriage, it's entirely possible that he just said he was baptised to get what he wanted at the time. People do stuff like that.

The whole annulment process was so incredibly painful for me that it caused me to stick a for sale sign in my front yard and move out of my archdiocese. As your posts suggest, the process is quite nuanced. Each poster will have the peace of mind they seek reviled to them as he/she goes through the process and possibly years afterwards. Until you have walked a mile in our shoes, I really feel that CM would be better served without your posts in this room.

12/06/2012 new

Let me say I disagree completely with regard to Jerry. There have been several instances that I have personally asked him to bring his knowledge to a topic in this room. His understanding of the canon law is much more comprehensive than many outside of tribunal lawyers. I have appreciated his sharing of information without any added 'emotion' involved.

While annulment is a most painful process, the lack of complete and accurate information will do more harm than good. I wish you luck in search and brightest blessings for a joyful Christmas. heart

12/06/2012 new
(Quote) AnneMarie-641597 said: Let me say I disagree completely with regard to Jerry. There have been several instances that I have person...
(Quote) AnneMarie-641597 said:

Let me say I disagree completely with regard to Jerry. There have been several instances that I have personally asked him to bring his knowledge to a topic in this room. His understanding of the canon law is much more comprehensive than many outside of tribunal lawyers. I have appreciated his sharing of information without any added 'emotion' involved.

While annulment is a most painful process, the lack of complete and accurate information will do more harm than good. I wish you luck in search and brightest blessings for a joyful Christmas.

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Very well said...I also appreciate Jerry's input on topics such as these.
12/06/2012 new

(Quote) Brenda-74660 said: Very well said...I also appreciate Jerry's input on topics such as these.
(Quote) Brenda-74660 said:

Very well said...I also appreciate Jerry's input on topics such as these.
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well, perhaps you are right. Seems I've been tripped up by the "rules" posted at the top of forums before. As soon as you call somebody on the fact that it says one thing and something else is happening, the response tends to me, "well, we didn't really mean it!" *sigh*

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