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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Dec 7th 2012 new

(Quote) Rose-921185 said: David, I can't speak for all Trads, but I do feel I represent many (especially as...
(Quote) Rose-921185 said:


David, I can't speak for all Trads, but I do feel I represent many (especially as I have seen in my own parish) and these people do not fit the stereotype and criticisms presented. As I have said in a previous comment, some Trads do seem to act like Pharisees, and this requires an increase in the virtues of charity and humility. I deal with some of these people in the parish I regularly attend and have attended for 7 years, and I will admit I didn't find them welcoming when I first came to the TLM. Even so, I saw what was truly lovely about the TLM and have learned much about my faith from all in the parish, including from those I find a little difficult to bear sometimes. Within the church, we are all sinners in need of redemption and we need to bear with one another as brothers and sisters in Christ.


I find many who attend the OF/NO just as difficult at times. Some are so anti-TLM, anti-Trad, that they "throw out the baby with the bath water". Just mentioning that I often attend the TLM has caused others of the OF/NO to judge me and box me into a preconceived category they hold without actually letting me speak for myself. There is one parish in my city that is very "Charismatic" (very Protestant in reality, they call themselves "St. ... Catholic Community" not "...Catholic Church"). I was there to be a sponsor for a teen receiving their Confirmation. In a conversation with the new, young priest, I mentioned that I attended the TLM. He practically walked away from me mid-sentence with a look of disgust on his face. I had not said anything critical of how they worship at that parish - I figured I would take the advice of St. Ambrose to St. Monica when she first arrived in Milan - and yet there was an instant barrier that was almost impossible to overcome.


To repeat (as it is in previous posts above): Both the TLM and the OF/NO are valid masses. There are some elements in the NO liturgy which are problematic as they have gone too far from traditional church teaching and there are efforts from the Vatican to remedy this. The TLM (though it's parishioners are not perfect themselves) has preserved much of what is reverant and traditional and sets a good standard to follow. I have met many who have started attended the TLM in the past 7 years and it often leads to those individuals learning more about the faith and traditional church teachings. The fruits are evident. I have attended the NO for many years prior and, in my case, have learned little of the true faith in that time. It seems that many things were taken for granted and there was an "it's all good" attitude. I do agree that we ALL need to act in charity and humility more often and this is the most important thing. In wanting to follow Jesus and wanting to truly please him, I tend to look to the traditonal teachings as these were them that were set originally by Him or those very close to Him. He knows what is best for the salvation of my soul and the souls of others, and He would not lead us astray. Unfortunately there are others in the church, though perhaps not always deliberately, who seem to be doing just that.

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Very well stated, Rose. Thank you.

Dec 7th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: The Church in the English Commonwealth is far more prone to such liberal nonsense. I call it the...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

The Church in the English Commonwealth is far more prone to such liberal nonsense. I call it the "Catholic Uncle Tom Syndrome" of trying to be too obliging to the culture rather than counter to it.

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David, with due respect, one of the greatest examples of WRONG that I have seen is a reasonably large church in Ohio (I noted that is where you reside) where the tabernacle has been removed. That is pretty bad for a simple Catholic to digest. The USA is in a very similar situation to the rest of the world.

Dec 7th 2012 new
Richard. I was not trying to say they were gnostics, just that some act like them. I exclusively attend the TLM. I have for a long time. I have gone to the NO a couple of times after the recent changes, but thats about it. Being accepted as a divorced Catholic male among trads is a hard life. But Mass is about God not so much the community so its all good!!
Dec 7th 2012 new

Tim, I know what you mean. But I cringe at the use of the word in this context. I was the sometime armed bodyguard of E C Prophet and her family of CUT and worked for or ran the print shop that produced massive amounts of materials to spread teaching that is gnostic. Blavatsky and all her line as well as Nicholas Roerich (the source of the truncated Pyramid on the US ferderal reserve note, with Sec. Wallace) were heroes to all the members.. They see the Serpent in the Garden, as the liberator from the domineering Father God. They still see him as such. Just check out the Secret Doctrine by Blavatsky or Morals and Dogma, the key masonic hand book, by Albert Pike. Too even use the word gnostic, acting like or whatever, is dangerous introduction of a false comparison. The above is also the theology of feminism, abortion, sodomy, etc. at its root.

Dec 7th 2012 new

I'm also divorced among traditionalists as well. They have always been very outgoing and supportive. I get far more than I give. Maybe our circumstances are different, and our individual cross as well, but keeping the commandments has its reward.

Dec 7th 2012 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: what are you referring to/?? >>I'm referring to the millions of poorly catechized Catho...
(Quote) John-220051 said: what are you referring to/??

>>I'm referring to the millions of poorly catechized Catholics who think that Catholicism and Protestantism are the same thing. I've met countless Catholics who think this way.

Not to mention, the Novus Ordo is often celebrated in many places in a manner resembling the Lutheran services I grew up with.
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In many places, it's celebrated with about as much reverence as a Low Church Episcopalian service. Versus Populum, three hymn sandwich and all.

Dec 8th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: In as much as Paul VI remarked in a public speech "that the smoke of Satan had entered the...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

In as much as Paul VI remarked in a public speech "that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church", we may not take the differences in the two Masses in question lightly, expecially as it relates to something commanding our utmost respect, the sacrament of matrimony and all it entails. The dictum "lex orandi ... lex credendi" or the "law of prayer dictates the law of belief" is at question. The 1.5 hour video on Youtube.com, "Reform or Revolt: The Mass of Pope Paul VI" gives a very adequate digest of the history of Liturgical Reform that is at the heart of this question. It's very respectful and well done. It's not just Vatican II were talking about here. It would behoove those who want to understand what is happening to our Church, even those who want to go into the commitment of marriage with eyes open take the time to learn more about what's going on. We are all struggling under the limits of our ability to gather and assimilate information. This was released in 2003 but presents a very useful overview in my opinion. Maybe it will add to our mutual respect for the difficulty we share in this struggle.
I believe it was the Ottoviani Intervention that forced a rewriting of Paul VI's first preface to the New Mass. All parties understood how difficult the introduction of the New Mass would be. So why wouldn't it make dating decisions difficult. Who are we kidding? And how else can we overcome those except but by education on the matter? Honest discovery, and great humility, may help overcome the "make or break" problems.

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Well said. I think for many of us, the differences would be too great.

Dec 8th 2012 new
This saving our soul is serious business, and you may not be aware of their understandings, and shouldn't assume you've got enough info to judge.

Thanks Richard, but I have no intentions of going back to that church, let alone of speaking to the priest who indirectly told me that I am not invited to communion because I am not familiar with the traditional mass form. I am Catholic and expect to be welcome to receive communion at another Catholic Mass. I was the one who was judged as insufficient because I was wearing jeans and did not have my head covered. They didn't have enough info on me to judge me. Was I asked if I was Catholic or if I have ever received the sacrament of communion before- no. I stood, sat and knelt when I was suppose to. I knew all the prayers, hymms and practices of the mass, but yet I was judged. I wonder to this day what would have happened if I had tried to receive communion.

I welcome opportunities to learn about all kinds of Catholic liturgies. But a place that does not wecome another Catholic to communion is not the place for me.

Your last comment peaks my curiosity and I need clarity on it. Are you saying that people who don't go to Latin mass are living in darkness (or somehow not saved)?
Dec 8th 2012 new

Thanks Josephine. Whose Mass did you go to? If you tell me I might be able to help a little with their perspective. Maybe. Funny, I would never wear jeans to Receive The Precious Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior, Unless I had to come directly from work, like milking the cows or something, and I'm in the construction business. And ... I'll leave it at that. Last NO Mass I saw the parishoners exit from, lookked like they were on their way to a beach party. And we don't have any beaches in Montana.

Dec 8th 2012 new
(Quote) Richard-722900 said: Thanks Josephine. Whose Mass did you go to? If you tell me I might be able to help a little with their perspe...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

Thanks Josephine. Whose Mass did you go to? If you tell me I might be able to help a little with their perspective. Maybe. Funny, I would never wear jeans to Receive The Precious Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior, Unless I had to come directly from work, like milking the cows or something, and I'm in the construction business. And ... I'll leave it at that. Last NO Mass I saw the parishoners exit from, lookked like they were on their way to a beach party. And we don't have any beaches in Montana.

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Your free to wear what you want and I am free to wear jeans.
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