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Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
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scratchchin Just saw this in the news...
Any thoughts ... has society changed us women so that men are thinking we don't need them ? Are men confused as to what it is to be a man and women confused as to what it is being a woman? I know it is a big question and we are all unique but I think there may be some truth to this.. Kathleen

Suzanne Venker, a conservative pundit and author of the soon-to-be-published by WND Books“How to Choose a Husband,”has taken her perspectives on men, women and marriage, which she sums up as “The War on Men,” to the women of “The View” on ABC.

Joining Whoopi Goldberg, Joy Behar, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, Sherri Sheppard and guest Mike Tyson on the set of “The View,” the conversation shifted to Venker’s recent FoxNews.com article“The War on Men,”in which she argued that the empowered modern female was turning men off from the idea of marriage.

Sheppard introduced Venker, stating, “Conservative author Suzanne Venker had heads spinning when she claimed that successful women are waging a war on men that has resulted in lazy men who aren’t interested in marriage and angry powerful women who are still playing the victim.”

Tyson, at one time the heavyweight champion of boxing and a convicted rapist, let out a powerful, albeit high-pitched, “Yeah” when Sheppard finished her introduction of Venker.

“I’m asking women to shine a spotlight on what has happened over the past 40 years, with the rise of women. Today’s generation of women are told not depend on a man, what’s happened is that they are carrying it with them into their relationships. It’s more contentious in the relationship,” said Venker.

“Men want to feel needed. Just because we’ve proven we can do anything men can do, doesn’t mean they want to hear it,” said Venker.

“We are teaching women that equality means sameness; if you are trying to be like a man, you’ll end up doing this. If we want lasting love, we should be allowed to have women act with femininity and men with masculinity. ”

Both Goldberg and Behar attacked Venker’s arguments, with Goldberg bringing up the 1950s image of a distressed housewife chained to her kitchen as the type of scenario Venker would like to see return.

Before Venker could even answer, Tyson interjected with a rambling story of his wife at home.

In an interview with WND, Venker said of Tyson’s commentary: “It was very helpful. The things that he did say were good at deflecting what could have been said. Whoopi and Joy were coming in for the kill, and Mike Tyson did a great job of deflecting.”

Venker said it’s not “a political conversation, it’s about marriage and love.”

“I was trying to keep it light so that, one, they’d invite me back and also to be able to deflect. Luckily, Tyson helped deflect the attacks from both Behar and Goldberg.”

Hasselbeck asked Venker asked how men are evolving to deal with empowered women, but before she could answer, the conversation shifted.

Asked by WND to address Hasselbeck’s question, Venker said: “Men don’t need women to be wives anymore. The dating world has changed dramatically, the chase concept, whether you call it courting or demonstrating value to a potential partner and making that really drawn out and worthwhile is gone. Now, it’s like, ‘Hello, let’s have sex.’ When did you believe that men were going to want, or need, to get married when this scenario exists?

“While many women want to get married, do men need to get married anymore when the ‘empowered’ woman allows this situation to continue? That’s how men are evolving,” said Venker.

Venker also took issue with Goldberg castigating the 1950s, telling WND: “I take issue that 1950s housewives were a mess … that every woman from that era is a caricature of June Cleaver. You’re basically talking about your mothers and grandmothers. Women are basically saying their mothers and grandmothers lives were a joke.

“I take issue that this time period was the worst time of being a mother. It’s a script that women were sold on, that being a housewife in the 1950s was oppressive. I don’t agree with that all,” she said.

Venker’s book,“How to Choose a Husband,”will be published Feb. 5, 2013.

In it, Venker notes that 40 years after the sexual revolution women of America have everything they want. Everything, that is, except a husband. Women may be schooled in the art of sex, she says, but they have failed in the art of love.

She says the modern generation is living in a culture that isn’t the least bit interested in helping them get hitched. For decades women have been taught to sleep around indiscriminately, to pursue an education and career at all costs, and to never depend on a man.

As a result, women delay marriage indefinitely or ignore it altogether, as though marriage has no bearing on their happiness. As though it were a nice idea, or nice accompaniment to an otherwise satisfying life.

This is an unprecedented worldview. Until recently, women have always mapped out their lives according to what they considered their most important role: wife and mother. Today, women plan their entire futures around big careers. Husband and children come last.

In“How to Choose a Husband,”Venker says American women need a detox.

If they want to be happy, or just plain satisfied, they must do a 180 when it comes to their attitude toward sex, courtship and married life.

If they do, marriageable men will reappear – and women will find the love that eludes them.

Venker’s previous book,“The Flipside of Feminism,”earned high praise from Focus on the Family founder James Dobson.

“Certain moments happen in all our lives that seem to be of incredible import. I would venture to say this could be one of those moments,” Dobson said as the authors of “The Flipside of Feminism,” Venker and Phyllis Schlafly, joined him on his program, “FamilyTalk.”

The book explains that since the 1960s, American feminists have set themselves up as the arbiters of all things female. Their policies have dominated the social and political landscape. The “spin sisters” in the media and their cohorts in academia are committed feminists. Consequently, everything Americans know – or think they know – about marriage, kids, sex, education, politics, gender roles and the work-family balance has been filtered through a left-wing lens.

But the book asserts that it is conservative women who actually are “in the best position to empower American women.”

Read more at www.wnd.com

LOCKED
Dec 12th 2012 new

One word answer to your title: Yes, that is exactly it. And they don't need marriage. So there is the problem.

LOCKED
Dec 12th 2012 new

Appears to summarize why buy the cow when a man can get all the milk he wants. Plus a decent man is much less likely to get interested in a sexually loose woman. A recent Internet article claimed that many/ most women are sexually loose.

Looks like the author shows how that's not producing marriages or happy marriages?

The same conclusion was seen by me in at least 2 CM Blogs, and I seldom read those Blogs.

The author's comment about being successful in the art of sex, but not of love, seems appropriate.

LOCKED
Dec 12th 2012 new

I haven't read the other posters, so forgive me if I repeat anything.


While this article brings up several interesting points, I find it contradicts itself. It not only bases its hypothesis on a narrow-minded focal point, but it criticizes an entire body of theory (feminism covers different waves in literature, politics, sociology, etc.) from a broad and rather cruel viewpoint. On the first point, it does not take into account the economic downturn our country has been in since World War II. Women do not have the option of waiting for husbands. We have to swim or die, which is not an exaggeration. Furthermore, we are often ostracized from unskilled labor, pushing us into higher education and beyond just to find a job. Consequently, we have crushing student loan debt that forces many of us to work jobs that are unkind towards mothers and families. These jobs, to be successful, demand more than 40 hours a week. It's understandable that women can't even think about marriage until late twenties or thirties. I myself don't have a financial support system. Everything I have, I have had to earn on wages that are always less than the men (that is not a criticism to men, as it is not their fault). And with the advancement of birth control and abortion, we are further objectified and cast aside as poor investments. Our economy looks first to the welfare of a corporation, leaving no room for emotional health or building a family with financial security.


And to critisize feminism is counter-productive to the point of it being a tragedy. Unless it is given context, the word "feminism" is immune from critcism because it covers so many broad, often contradictory, schools of thought and disciplines. I consider myself a feminist, and I would argue that saints like St. Thomas More, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Clare and St. Agnes of Assisi, St. Agatha. etc. were all feminists. As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single saint who was not a feminist. Forgive me if I'm off-track, but it pains me to see scholars or prominent figures casting aside feminism with stereotypes and lies.


I think the real problem is socio-economic, not simply the brainchild of modern philosophy or other irrelevant postmodern theories. This is not a war between men and women, there are greater forces at work. Perhaps if we ("we" meaning the different sexes) stopped trying to blame each other, we could work with other to see the bigger picture and look for a more lasting resolution.

LOCKED
Dec 12th 2012 new

Being needed, being wanted, being respected and being there are all different things.

For me, it’s about mutual respect in a romantic relationship. If you respect each other, you value each other’s achievements and contributions, you don’t resort to manipulation and control, you trust each other, and you ground your mutual respect in shared values. Commitment, i.e. marriage, is the culmination of respect for each other and God. Within that committed God-centred relationship you continue to respect each other, celebrate together, mourn together, and work through problems together.

I would hope that a man would view himself as more than just a meal-ticket for some woman. Men and women are human beings with a past, a present and a future. We are more than just the jobs we hold and how much salary we pull in. Our intrinsic value stems from being created in the image of God. It does not come from what's on a paystub every two weeks.

In a previous thread, I wrote something along the lines that women are adults and treating women like children as happened in the past didn’t do anyone any favours. In cases where the husband / provider either left or died, the family suffered. When a woman is allowed an economic opportunity that does not mean that a man is not needed or wanted in the family. Sometimes he just isn’t there. When a woman is allowed an economic opportunity that does not mean that a man is denied an opportunity. The economy is not a static thing with only 12 jobs that pay money so there better not be more than 12 people who occupy the jobs. The economy is dynamic, and the economy actually expands when there are more exchanges of money and goods. There is no war on men. If there is a war, it's on family values. Just my two cents

LOCKED
Dec 13th 2012 new

Having come from a marriage where I was unappreciated... my perspective on this is perhaps a bit colored already. It is important for a man to feel respected, and to feel like what he brings to the table is appreciated in the context of a family situation. A man does not want a spouse who he has to compete with at home. Men want love and support from spouses. Men want to be allowed to be dads for our children, and to use our manly parenting characteristics to father our children. We don't have to have the same approach as our wives, and should be respected for the parenting skills and techniques we bring to the table. And... we want Peace in our homes.

It seems like today, women want to compete with men in everything. There is no safety for men at home if their spouse isn't feminine and caring. I didn't say submissive. Nothing is a bigger turnoff than a woman who offers a man no shelter or support when he asks for it, or who doesn't bring a feminine and caring touch to the home environment. I think women these days have largely lost that ability. I have seen it rarely when visiting homes of Catholic friends, and it is simply amazing to see when I've found it. Marriages with such support tend to seem quite strong... (though I've seen one that crumbled due to issues the husband had with narcissism...)

And society indeed makes it difficult to find women to marry these days. I work rotating shifts in a small office... how to find women? I can't participate in many outside events where singles gather, on a routine basis. Sex is available whenever a man wants it, though I'd think sex in marriage is a lot better and more fulfilling than outside of marriage. Not to mention safer. Another issue is the "family court" system and the abuse it perpetrates on men (and our children) in many states. There is a HUGE disincentive to marry when there is a 93% chance you'll lose your children if there is a divorce, as well as much of what you've worked hard to build, financially, for many years. While we want to see our marriages succeed, there ARE some women out there who marry... with no intention from the outset of making it a lifelong commitment. It can be difficult sometimes to be a good judge of character...some of us guys make mistakes when choosing to marry (young).

Just seems like, at least in my generation, women have forgotten how to be women. Not really interested in marrying a woman who wants to be a man.

LOCKED
Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Bob-59786 said: Appears to summarize why buy the cow when a man can get all the milk he wants. Plus a decent man is ...
(Quote) Bob-59786 said:

Appears to summarize why buy the cow when a man can get all the milk he wants. Plus a decent man is much less likely to get interested in a sexually loose woman. A recent Internet article claimed that many/ most women are sexually loose.

Looks like the author shows how that's not producing marriages or happy marriages?

The same conclusion was seen by me in at least 2 CM Blogs, and I seldom read those Blogs.

The author's comment about being successful in the art of sex, but not of love, seems appropriate.

--hide--

Bob, if I found a woman to be sexually "loose", I'd certainly have great concerns about her potential as a marriage partner. Sleeping around while married is not the exclusive domain of married men. :-) The ladies do it quite a bit, too, from what I've read.

LOCKED
Dec 13th 2012 new

The "good" guys need marriage. We're just struggling to find suitable mates. This site is kind of an oasis, I think. :-) Lots of seemingly great ladies here... but society at large is not this way, especially for us younger folks. Rampant "casual sex", shallow relationships, etc.

LOCKED
Dec 13th 2012 new

Thanks for posting the article, Kathleen. I think it does a good job at addressing a lot of issues with the feminist movement and the destruction the message it gave when it came to sex and men. I think the author was brave to go on The View, most of the women on that panel are so liberal, they make Donna Brazile blush.

LOCKED
Dec 13th 2012 new

(Quote) Michael-780154 said: Bob, if I found a woman to be sexually "loose", I'd certainly have great concerns...
(Quote) Michael-780154 said:

Bob, if I found a woman to be sexually "loose", I'd certainly have great concerns about her potential as a marriage partner. Sleeping around while married is not the exclusive domain of married men. :-) The ladies do it quite a bit, too, from what I've read.

--hide--

Michael - our local Catholic Singles Group had a Theology of the Body presentation at our Cathedral about 2 years ago. The Presenter called sexual immoraity "rampant". My large Apt Complex has several cohabitators here. It appears people go thru a series of "friends w/ benefits", and probably unhappier w/ each partner if/ when that ends.

There ARE people (men and women) serious about chastity. Women like that are the only type of woman I'll consider.

LOCKED
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