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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Dec 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: Tom, I think the Church has always been more known for bering "One, Holy, Roman, Catholic ...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

Tom, I think the Church has always been more known for bering "One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic" than being either a big tent or dipolar. In my opinion, Athanasius, the early Church Father, that almost singlehandedly led the Church to overcome Arianism, might take issue with the comparison of the idea that there are two different appeals or characters in the Masses in question, one in an intellectually oriented TLM and the other in an emotionally oriented NO, with the divine and human natures of Jesus Christ. His coinage and preaching of the doctrine, Hypostatic union of those natures, helped put Arianism out of business. In my opinion, the TLM appeals to the craving for the sublime in our emotions and the NO more to the sympathetic. So, in my opinion, I think that is a false dichotomy.
What do you think?

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Thanks, Richard, for helping me sharpen my thoughts on this. I tend to strongly agree with you that the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic; unfortunately, I do not think Arianism is out of business and I say this precisely because (I think) some within the Church may, unknowingly or knowingly, wish to re-fashion the Mass so that it is less sublime and more socially or culturally conscious. So, I appreciate your clarifying response to my post.

I attended RCIA training classes with my friend who is in charge of the program at a local parish, and when it was brought up that the Church needed to be more culturally sensitive to people of other cultures by saying Mass in the local language, my friend made an interesting statement about Latin being the solution as the universal language. People throughout the world could be as one if the Church maintained one language--Latin. Of course, his answer did not get a serious response. Still, I see some truth in what he said, and I suppose people everywhere could learn this one, universal language for the Mass. I think we sometimes get into trouble when we view Jesus through just the human lens. I stopped going to, and helping with RCIA, at another, more "progressive" parish when I had enough of the pastor's Jesus Seminar take on who Christ is. And, clearly, at that parish, Arianism seemed to be alive, but I am not sure I could defend my claim. Heretical beliefs were made, but I did not write to the Bishop because I might be in over my head, and did not want to shoot from the hip if I was wrong.

Perhaps the "big tent" statement I heard, and echoed, needs to be reconsidered. Please comment more on my response and I will try to better articulate my thoughts. In short, what I did not like when I returned to Mass roughly 4 or 5 years ago, was this focus on Kumbaya (?) instead of, as you put it, the sublime worship of the Almighty. The catechist made it sound that we stopped serving the Lord at the dismissal, and by extension, I believe he felt that changes in the Mass that made us "bow to the god in each other," is was what Jesus implied when he made his Great Commandment. Feel free to assist me with this.

Dec 15th 2012 new

I agree with you on the Arianism issue. There does seem to have been a recent resurgence of some sort. I'm looking for something written about the theological development of John Paul II that lead to the Interfaith gathering of 1986 at Assisi. I wonder if it was connected to his public kissing of the Koran. Google it. By the way John XXIII advocated strongly for Latin at the beginning of his pontificate, probably for the same reasons your associate did. It was "come up higher" for a couple more years, and then "make it relevant" or something.

Dec 15th 2012 new

(Quote) Richard-722900 said: I agree with you on the Arianism issue. There does seem to have been a recent resurgence of som...
(Quote) Richard-722900 said:

I agree with you on the Arianism issue. There does seem to have been a recent resurgence of some sort. I'm looking for something written about the theological development of John Paul II that lead to the Interfaith gathering of 1986 at Assisi. I wonder if it was connected to his public kissing of the Koran. Google it. By the way John XXIII advocated strongly for Latin at the beginning of his pontificate, probably for the same reasons your associate did. It was "come up higher" for a couple more years, and then "make it relevant" or something.

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I'm not sure what your last sentence is saying, but I think you have helped me to see a subtle Arianism that, through the rising activity of the laity combined with a simultaneous decline in ortodox priests and semanaries, has brought us to this point. I don't want man's take on all things Catholic; I want the Holy Spirit's, and something definitely seemed wrong.

Here is my last vignette on this post (I seemed to have deviated from John's initial query about traditional and moderns getting along as a couple). At one of the RCIA meetings at the progressive pastor's parish, he made many outlandish statements, which one of the long-time lay wives working on the team always would always defend. He thundered, "No Catholic should ever be denied the Eucharist; and that includes pro-abortion politicians," to which the lay-wife responded while slowly turning her gaze on me: "I want to say that you have only stated the Church's position and I hope that nobody will consider you a renegade priest." (I was asking myself at this point, "Were those dogs Rotweilers or Dobermans in the movie, The Omen"). Sadly, his response was, "I am a renegade priest." The poor catechumens in the room didn't even have a chance for a full discussion. As it turns out, this particular pastor was much more in love with Joseph Campbell and Jung, than with Augustine ("As a Catholic, you do not have to believe in the doctrine of Original Sin") or Aquinas.

After he stopped answering my emails, I quit the parish after Easter Vigil and am happy with my orthodox Mexican and African priests in a community of whites, Latinos, Philippinos, and Africans. Amidst that diversity, I do see unity because the pastor is in line with the Church.

Dec 16th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: (Quote) John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and th...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Quote:
John-220051 said: Can it work out between traditionalist Catholics and those of a less traditional more modern vein? I'm talking about worship style here and less about faith matters.


I doubt it. The Trad is probably incapable of the teeniest tiniest compromise. The non-Trad would be brow-beaten either into submission or into a nuthouse.

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Hilarious David!!! And TRUE. There is no compromise with these "holier than the Church" people.

Dec 16th 2012 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: (Quote) Ray-566531 said: I find it difficult to believe that a preference ...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Quote:
Ray-566531 said:

I find it difficult to believe that a preference about liturgical rites would curtail a loving relationship. We're all Catholic, right? The Eucharist is still the Eucharist.



That's because you're a reasonable guy who loves God instead of loving having your will be done in all things.


Unfortunately, for all too many of the Trad disposition, the MO is "my way or the highway".

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David has again concisely hit the nail on the head. The attempt at condescension by them is always glaring. They really do think that they are superior to other Catholics!

Dec 16th 2012 new

Not sure who here merits the "holier than thou" moniker, but I do prefer the liturgy to be sacred, sublime, and "holier than thou." That is the difference. This morning's Mass, non-traditional, was still beautiful. There is no condescencion, only a desire to be among communal God worshipers rather than communal people worshipers. Who said, "We are called to be holy"?

Dec 16th 2012 new

Thanks Ross, Now we can share a laugh together. I've been accused of being overly concerned about the folding of the altar cloth. But not this. When I was gold mining in the 70s we used to shoot dynamite out of trees for kicks. Forlding altar clothes? A stretch. But this accusation. Out os this world. Thanks for the laugh.

Dec 16th 2012 new

(Quote) Tom-919560 said: Not sure who here merits the "holier than thou" moniker, but I do prefer the liturgy to b...
(Quote) Tom-919560 said:

Not sure who here merits the "holier than thou" moniker, but I do prefer the liturgy to be sacred, sublime, and "holier than thou." That is the difference. This morning's Mass, non-traditional, was still beautiful. There is no condescencion, only a desire to be among communal God worshipers rather than communal people worshipers. Who said, "We are called to be holy"?

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I wish I could remember all the details. Will have to spend some time later trying to look it up.

There is an older Priest in Chicago who was asked what parish he would like to have. He asked for an old Polish parish. It had once been one of the biggest parishes in Chicago. When Chicago built its freeways, it really carved up the parish's territory. Then most of the remaining parishioners moved to the suburbs. The Archbishop was seriously considering closing the parish and selling the real estate. The Archbishop went along with the Priest's request. Can't remember if it was Cardinal George or his predecessor.

Anyway, this pastor managed to restore the Church. At the same time he obtained the Bishop's permission to start a Congregation of priests dedicated to making the saying of Mass more uplifiting. He also obtained permission for his priests to use the Extraordinary form.

So on Sundays, Mass is said in both the New Form as well as the old Latin Mass. All the Sunday Masses are now packed. Attendees come from all over the City and register as parishioners. His membership numbers now surpass the old Parishes numbers.

The interesting thing that he has observed is that it is mainly the older folks who go to the Novus Ordo Mass and the younger ones who attend the Latin Mass.

His Congregation of priests work very hard at making either Mass more meaningful and holy. Other Diocese have requested that he send priests to them. And where they are assigned they are mainly used by the local Bishop to say the old Latin Mass.

I have watched some of the services by his priests on you Tube. And whether it is a Mass of either form or Benediction it is done very reverently with appropriate solemnity.

Dec 16th 2012 new
Reverence, solemnity and orthodoxy/ orthopraxy. Its all i ever wanted.
Dec 16th 2012 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: The interesting thing that he has observed is that it is mainly the older folks who go to the Novu...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

The interesting thing that he has observed is that it is mainly the older folks who go to the Novus Ordo Mass and the younger ones who attend the Latin Mass.

His Congregation of priests work very hard at making either Mass more meaningful and holy. Other Diocese have requested that he send priests to them. And where they are assigned they are mainly used by the local Bishop to say the old Latin Mass.

I have watched some of the services by his priests on you Tube. And whether it is a Mass of either form or Benediction it is done very reverently with appropriate solemnity.

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Your story strikes a very positive chord with me, Paul..."reverently with appropriate solemnity."

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