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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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01/12/2013 new

(Quote) Helen-450889 said: See the post from 1-9 at 4:19 pm. There is another video about liturgical dance. In the Roman Ca...
(Quote) Helen-450889 said: See the post from 1-9 at 4:19 pm. There is another video about liturgical dance.

In the Roman Catholic Church, this kind of liturgical dance is highly frowned upon.

The pictures have absolutely nothing to do with culture.
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Hmmm....ok...the video was is in regard to a special ceremony for bringing the relics of St Bosco to the Cathedral.


I guess the thread is for mass that is not super proper at ALL times? (I am not Catholic mind you)...just my thought is that if there is a special ceremony, and this is a special occasion..special singing, dancing, drumming etc may be appropriate for a 'special' occasion. I don't know. That is just my opinion. Like I said, I have seen out of the 'ordinary' stuff on EWTN for certain celebrations...that is NOT part of their normal evening (daily mass). Mind you, I go to daily mass...there is no choir or anything...not saying I am totally into dancing and that kind of thing or anything... Just pointing out that there is a difference between normal mass and a celebration of a new bishop, bringing relics, Christmas, etc. From what I am gathering Rome doesn't want any special celebrations? I am very new to the Catholic faith. I ask dumb questions!

01/12/2013 new
(Quote) Helen-450889 said: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com
(Quote) Helen-450889 said: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com
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They are mocking the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I would have walked out.
01/12/2013 new
(Quote) Laura-695247 said: (Quote) Helen-450889 said: See the post from 1-9 at 4:19 pm. There is another video about litur...
(Quote) Laura-695247 said:

Quote:
Helen-450889 said: See the post from 1-9 at 4:19 pm. There is another video about liturgical dance.

In the Roman Catholic Church, this kind of liturgical dance is highly frowned upon.

The pictures have absolutely nothing to do with culture.






Hmmm....ok...the video was is in regard to a special ceremony for bringing the relics of St Bosco to the Cathedral.




I guess the thread is for mass that is not super proper at ALL times? (I am not Catholic mind you)...just my thought is that if there is a special ceremony, and this is a special occasion..special singing, dancing, drumming etc may be appropriate for a 'special' occasion. I don't know. That is just my opinion. Like I said, I have seen out of the 'ordinary' stuff on EWTN for certain celebrations...that is NOT part of their normal evening (daily mass). Mind you, I go to daily mass...there is no choir or anything...not saying I am totally into dancing and that kind of thing or anything... Just pointing out that there is a difference between normal mass and a celebration of a new bishop, bringing relics, Christmas, etc. From what I am gathering Rome doesn't want any special celebrations? I am very new to the Catholic faith. I ask dumb questions!

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No one ever asks a dumb question. The smartest people always ask, "why!" Which is what you are genuinely doing.

The thread was originally for what is known as the Clown Mass...which apparently was more popular in the 60 and/or 70s. Apparently, it originated when some Bishops and Priests took portions of Vatican 2 and twisted them to mean whatever they wished. ((I am not an apologist. I know that Jerry or many other CMers can better reflect upon this situation than I can.))

The liturgical dance shown in that post is highly irreverent. There is no place for it in the Mass. The fact that it was done in a special ceremony makes it even more irreverent. One reason, for example, that the video is so irreverent is because there are what seems to be Masonic symbols on the floor. In addition, the structure of the building is more suited for a rock concert than the sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

((Notice that the altar is in the center of the area, equally visible to everyone.))

Another reason that the liturgical dance in the video is so highly irreverent is because it was done DURING the liturgy.

"Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of the liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment."--Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XV1.

The Matachines dance for the Our Lady of Guadalupe celebration happens PRIOR to the Liturgy. Prior to MASS.
01/12/2013 new

(Quote) Laura-695247 said: Hmmm....ok...the video was is in regard to a special ceremony for bringing ...
(Quote) Laura-695247 said:


Hmmm....ok...the video was is in regard to a special ceremony for bringing the relics of St Bosco to the Cathedral.


I guess the thread is for mass that is not super proper at ALL times? (I am not Catholic mind you)...just my thought is that if there is a special ceremony, and this is a special occasion..special singing, dancing, drumming etc may be appropriate for a 'special' occasion. I don't know. That is just my opinion. Like I said, I have seen out of the 'ordinary' stuff on EWTN for certain celebrations...that is NOT part of their normal evening (daily mass). Mind you, I go to daily mass...there is no choir or anything...not saying I am totally into dancing and that kind of thing or anything... Just pointing out that there is a difference between normal mass and a celebration of a new bishop, bringing relics, Christmas, etc. From what I am gathering Rome doesn't want any special celebrations? I am very new to the Catholic faith. I ask dumb questions!

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Coming from a non-Catholic background, perhaps the most important thing for you to understand about the Mass is that it is not simply a prayer service.

If you recall from the Gospel of John, Jesus promised to give his followers the bread of life, that he would give them his flesh and it would be real bread. John also tells us that this statement caused many to fall away. All of the other Gospels tell us that at the Last Supper, Jesus broke bread and told them it was his body, likewise that the wine was his blood, and told them to continue to do this.

This was not simply a symbolic action. Jesus Christ is physically present in the Eucharist, just like He promised. The Mass is ultimately the Last Supper being shared with all of Christ's disciples, regardless of period in time.

Given this, the focus of any Mass is to be the Eucharist. There are any number of special Masses for various purposes. But even at a wedding, or a confirmation, or a Chrism Mass, etc. the focus is always ultimately the Eucharist, and nothing is to "upstage" that. So while the Church might emphasize different things on say, a feast day, through the readings that are proscribed, or some of the prayers, or the homily, the crowning point is always the Eucharist.

Things such as clown paint, or liturgical dance, etc. draw attention to a performer (where it is not supposed to be) instead of drawing it towards Christ (where it should be).

01/12/2013 new

(Quote) Laura-695247 said: Hmmm....ok...the video was is in regard to a special ceremony for bringing ...
(Quote) Laura-695247 said:


Hmmm....ok...the video was is in regard to a special ceremony for bringing the relics of St Bosco to the Cathedral.


I guess the thread is for mass that is not super proper at ALL times? (I am not Catholic mind you)...just my thought is that if there is a special ceremony, and this is a special occasion..special singing, dancing, drumming etc may be appropriate for a 'special' occasion. I don't know. That is just my opinion. Like I said, I have seen out of the 'ordinary' stuff on EWTN for certain celebrations...that is NOT part of their normal evening (daily mass). Mind you, I go to daily mass...there is no choir or anything...not saying I am totally into dancing and that kind of thing or anything... Just pointing out that there is a difference between normal mass and a celebration of a new bishop, bringing relics, Christmas, etc. From what I am gathering Rome doesn't want any special celebrations? I am very new to the Catholic faith. I ask dumb questions!

--hide--

Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boys he was administering to.

So if this film shows something having to do with St. John Bosco, what we were seeing could well have been totally appropriate.

I remember seeing excerpts on EWTN from a Mass Pope JPII celebrated for circus performers.The attendees were in costume and jugglers performed and clowns brought the gifts to the altar.

So although generally frowned upon and properly labeled as abuse, it is possible that this kind of thing could be appropriate and proper.

01/12/2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boys he wa...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boys he was administering to.



So if this film shows something having to do with St. John Bosco, what we were seeing could well have been totally appropriate.



I remember seeing excerpts on EWTN from a Mass Pope JPII celebrated for circus performers.The attendees were in costume and jugglers performed and clowns brought the gifts to the altar.



So although generally frowned upon and properly labeled as abuse, it is possible that this kind of thing could be appropriate and proper.

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Quoting you, "properly labeled as abuse" is the proper description.
01/12/2013 new
I think people forget that just because a particular Pope does something doesnt make it correct, proper or even in good taste. The Pope is not impecable. He can make mistakes. He can hold personal views that may even be heretical. See Vatican council I. Novelty is abundant currently. Some may be good, other things bad. History will show this. Dont get hung up on novelty, cling fast to tradtion as St Paul teaches us. BTW Helen, great new profile picture!
01/12/2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boy...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boys he was administering to.

So if this film shows something having to do with St. John Bosco, what we were seeing could well have been totally appropriate.

I remember seeing excerpts on EWTN from a Mass Pope JPII celebrated for circus performers.The attendees were in costume and jugglers performed and clowns brought the gifts to the altar.

So although generally frowned upon and properly labeled as abuse, it is possible that this kind of thing could be appropriate and proper.

--hide--

That's a good point, the movie on St Bosco is shown a lot on EWTN and I think I remember that. I guess my main point is that it is easy to throw up video or photos, and put them totally out of context. I don't think that is a benefit to the church. I understand ' point about it possibly not being appropriate during a certain point in the mass. I am not sure I saw the whole video...I saw Knights of Columbus at the beginning, which made me think it was only at the beginning of a special mass/ceremony. If this is indeed the situation and the music and dancing were in honor of St Bosco, and not subtracting from the Eucharist, it seems to make sense to me. Just my thoughts.

01/13/2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boy...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Among other things St. John Bosco was a juggler and used that talent to entertain the boys he was administering to.

So if this film shows something having to do with St. John Bosco, what we were seeing could well have been totally appropriate.

I remember seeing excerpts on EWTN from a Mass Pope JPII celebrated for circus performers.The attendees were in costume and jugglers performed and clowns brought the gifts to the altar.

So although generally frowned upon and properly labeled as abuse, it is possible that this kind of thing could be appropriate and proper.

--hide--

However, I hope we all stipulate that St. John Bosco never juggled at the altar, as people like this seem to think is all right to have happen at the Sanctuary.

The rubric of the traditional mass did not allow for such shinanagans anyway, and should never be allowed to florish under the Novus Ordo either!

01/13/2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said: The priest stands in the person of Christ when he offers the Mass. These pictures ar...
(Quote) Elizabeth-462557 said:

The priest stands in the person of Christ when he offers the Mass. These pictures are very disturbing to me. Dressing up as clowns contradicts the seriousness of the Mass. The visual message presented in those pictures is difficult for me to decipher. The children must be totally confused. The Mass is about God's sacrificial love so great that He allowed his Son to die for us. How can that possibly translate to the clown paint and attire of the priest? This is very disturbing. I'm afraid that the intent of Vatican II has been lost in the application of Vatican II. It is no wonder that being Catholic no longer has consequences in the American Catholic Church. One can promote the death of the unborn and mock the mass with no consequences from the Hierarchy. I am confident God continues to be the same even after Vatican II. The present state of the Church leaves me longing for days gone by.


Very disturbing.


- Elizabeth

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What's even more disturbing, is that this mass didn't take place in America, but in Italy.

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