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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: I tend to think the cause and effect may be the reverse of this: that a diminished belief...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

I tend to think the cause and effect may be the reverse of this: that a diminished belief in the Real Presence is responsible for the less respectful behavior in church.

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That seems to make a lot of sense...maybe throw in a feedback loop where the original driver was the diminished belief which cause less respectful behavior, which in turn accelerated the diminishing of the belief...

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching ...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:

One of the modern day issues that the Church is grappling with is acceptance of Catholic teaching and belief in the Real Presence. The reasons for this are numerous and cannot be summarized in a paragraph or two.


Yesterday, I watched part of a speech on YouTube by a man who appeared to be well known in the USA (not by me but I googled him later) in a Church. His talk was fine and included discussion of the Real Presence. However, all the associated carry on, including encouraging his wife to stand up and receive a round of applause (for being his wife) made me think that while all this was going on that the theatrics were actually taking the focus away from the Church being the home of the Holy Eucharist. Is it appropriate to have concerts and other events in a Church and does that have an impact in dumbing down the belief in the Sacred Species being in the Tabernacle? Should we be having chats inside a church and generally acting casually or does Christ deserve better?

I can't stand wearing a suit but I am much more productive when I get dressed up and go to an office rather than work in the casual environment at home. Is nurturing our Faith similar?

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Gabor, This Bishop has a good answer to you question and I agree with him. This is the Show EWTN live about and Hour long.www.youtube.com

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud you...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:



Chelsea, I did not expect to read a post like yours written by a young lady. I applaud your post. There is a football term referred to as "white line fever". I feel that when we cross that "white line" and enter a Church we are entering sacred territory and we interact with Our Lord in a very different way to interacting with our friends over a beer in a bar. Many of my friends/associates/relatives don't get that-it's nice to read that you do. Re the last post I don't recall my post or yours making any mention of the Tridentine Mass?

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While no one mentioned the Tridentine Mass, it is undeniable that the different masses have a different tone to them. Charismatic Masses stand in unique difference to the Tridentine, for example, not only in the Form, but in the expressiveness of the Catholic worship and the emphasis placed on music versus quiet contemplation. Sometimes a Charismatic Mass can feel like more of a concert due to that. I do wish to reinforce that I personally am not placing the Masses on a scale of superiority or holiness, however.

I completely agree that a Church is sacred territory, and we interact with Our Lord in a Church very differently from how we interact with our friends in a secular gathering place. My experience is that most people I have met get that point very thoroughly. The people who would rather gather with their friends in a secular place do just that - they don't go to Church.

The odd parishioner may forget to turn off their cell phone (more annoying than disrespectful, and I think most people feel sorry for the person who inadvertently left their phone on and was embarrassed by that). Human beings will be imperfect - someone will have a coughing fit, someone will sneeze three times in a row, a baby will start to fuss and then cry at the top of their lungs, Family So-and-So will bring in more toddler paraphernalia than you find at a daycare centre and take up half of the pew, or an impoverished family or individual may not look like they stepped from the pages of the Sears catalogue. The point is that they came to Mass, and if they didn't believe that they would be encountering Our Lord, they would have more easily gone to the bar or the coffee shop or the casino instead.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Angela-374523 said: The only churches I have seen that are used for secular purposes such as concerts are Protestant...
(Quote) Angela-374523 said:

The only churches I have seen that are used for secular purposes such as concerts are Protestant ones. They allow the space to be used for such things as classical music concerts, where the audience remains seated, but not other types of concerts.

I do remember in high school (a Catholic high school) that the chapel, which was a part of the school building itself (down the hall from the cafeteria
actually) was used by students for music recitals, under the supervision of one of the Sisters. So, no wild secular music or human spectacle there.

I have attended only Novus Ordo masses during my lifetime. All of those masses over the years have been very reverent. During traditional Novus Ordo masses, the only clapping that has ever happened in all of those years that I can think of involved welcoming a newly baptized child
into the parish following the Sacrament of Baptism, and congratulating a 50-year anniversary of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony for one of the older couples in the parish after they renewed their vows. I wouldn't refer to either of these as a human spectacle or achievement. Sacraments were involved. Humans do attend, however.

Some of the charismatic masses (not my favourite) have been a bit more demonstrative during the hymns (clapping to the music and waving arms in the air). I have not seen anything disrespectful of the Real Presence happen in a Catholic Church ever. While I can appreciate that the TLM has a slightly different tone, I don’t think it is more or less respectful than other masses. It is different, that’s all. Some may prefer one over the other, just as I prefer a traditional Novus Ordo mass over a charismatic one, but it is not superior, and the Catholic Church does not teach that one Catholic Mass is superior to the rest. One can just as easily say that “those who sing pray twice” so singing with great enthusiasm makes you more holy. That still won't get me to go charistmatic masses more often, however. God, in his infinite and superior wisdom, gave me a horrible singing voice, and I do not wish to inflict that on any of my fellow Catholics.

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Hi, Angela,

I do take exception with some of what you've said. I don't think that much of the behaviour I've witnessed at charismatic events (and, yes, the Masses offered at these events) is either reverent of the sacred or edifying to one's neighbour. The Catechism of the Catholic Church in para. 1182 states:

"The altar of the New Covenant is the Lord's Cross (cf. Hebrews 13:10) from which the sacraments of the Paschal mystery flow. On the altar, which is the centre of the church, the Sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs. The altar is also the table of the Lord, to which the People of God are invited."

If that is so, that the altar IS the Lord's Cross, then ought we really be dancing about, waving arms, shouting, clapping to secular style music and singing in a raucous fashion? Can you imagine Our Lady, St. Mary Magdalene, and the Apostle St. John doing such as Our Lord was nailed to the cross and raised in ignominy for all to see?

I have seen much in the last five to seven years in so-called Catholic Churches that is a realy culture shock for me. There has been lots of secular music and secular style music, lots of violations of Canon Law (like women reading the liturgical readings and offering common prayers in the ambo), lots of violations of public decency and modesty, major loss of discernment between the sacred and the profane. Just yesterday the priest commanded us all to sit before the final blessing and called up all of the school children who attend the parish school to treat the parish to a protestant sola-scriptura song, complete with large and flashy cutout letters spelling the name of Our Lord, profane shouts and actions, etc. It was pretty horrifying to see these children who can likely not discern even what they're doing when they receive Holy Communion acting as trained monkeys entertaining the congregation with their beaming little faces. In the last year these children have been taught to take Our Lord's name vainly (meaning to say it if it has absolutely no meaning) and profane the sign of the Cross as if it were merely another dance move.

I, personally, can't imagine doing these things outside of the Church, much less inside. Looking at the altar in the fashion described by the Catechism (as the Lord's cross) makes it even less likely that I am going to start either doing, supporting, or promoting such action in the near future.

Another problem is the offering to God publicly of what is materially flawed as if there is no flaw. Is it good and praiseworthy to adorn the tabernacle with rotting flowers? Is it acceptable as long as the intention is good? I can't find any justification for this whatsoever...

Is it good and praiseworthy to have several individuals with speech impediments offer the common prayers/general intercessions? Is it acceptable as long as the intention is good? Is it good and praiseworthy to have individuals who cannot sing in tune to save their lives offer the ministry of cantor at Mass? Is it acceptable as long as the intention is good? I contend that all of these things are materially bad. Why in the world should we offer to God in a public manner in the Holy Sacrifice that which is lacking? I'm not referring to the individual and private offering each one makes of himself at Mass, we can't help that we're all lacking due to original sin, but we can, as St. Paul teaches, give those among us with less honour, more honour by shielding them, just as we do our less honourable parts. We do not expose our genitals to public view, so why do we expose those at Mass with less of what is honourable to the public? It doesn't make sense to me.

If you've never seen The Princess Bride, I suggest you rent or borrow it and watch the wedding scene near the end. The very atmosphere that scene invokes is, on a natural level, why the materially flawed ought not be offered publicly to God as if there is no flaw in it. This is why there are such stringent requirements for men who are on the path to priestly ordination, both in regards to physical appearance, ability and mental formation.

It's fortunate for you that you've never experienced these things. I hope that continues for you.

Finally, regarding the notion that "those who sing pray twice," I merely have to say that the statement taken as an absolute, on it's own, is silly. If I say the lyrics of the song Row, Row, Row Your Boat, it certainly isn't a prayer, so how would singing it making it twice prayed? If you're referring to those songs which are true prayers to God, then I am in agreement. Those songs which are filled with error and heresy which the protestants, moslems, hindus, etc. sing for religious purposes and others which are heard sung in Catholic Churches are no prayer at all.

There's no doubt that the people are invited to the altar as "the table of the Lord," but that doesn't mean that we disregard the altar as the Lord's cross and act in a casual and profane manner around it.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Hi, Angela,I do take exception with some of what you've said. I don't t...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Hi, Angela,

I do take exception with some of what you've said. I don't think that much of the behaviour I've witnessed at charismatic events (and, yes, the Masses offered at these events) is either reverent of the sacred or edifying to one's neighbour. The Catechism of the Catholic Church in para. 1182 states:

"The altar of the New Covenant is the Lord's Cross (cf. Hebrews 13:10) from which the sacraments of the Paschal mystery flow. On the altar, which is the centre of the church, the Sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs. The altar is also the table of the Lord, to which the People of God are invited."

If that is so, that the altar IS the Lord's Cross, then ought we really be dancing about, waving arms, shouting, clapping to secular style music and singing in a raucous fashion? Can you imagine Our Lady, St. Mary Magdalene, and the Apostle St. John doing such as Our Lord was nailed to the cross and raised in ignominy for all to see?

I have seen much in the last five to seven years in so-called Catholic Churches that is a realy culture shock for me. There has been lots of secular music and secular style music, lots of violations of Canon Law (like women reading the liturgical readings and offering common prayers in the ambo), lots of violations of public decency and modesty, major loss of discernment between the sacred and the profane. Just yesterday the priest commanded us all to sit before the final blessing and called up all of the school children who attend the parish school to treat the parish to a protestant sola-scriptura song, complete with large and flashy cutout letters spelling the name of Our Lord, profane shouts and actions, etc. It was pretty horrifying to see these children who can likely not discern even what they're doing when they receive Holy Communion acting as trained monkeys entertaining the congregation with their beaming little faces. In the last year these children have been taught to take Our Lord's name vainly (meaning to say it if it has absolutely no meaning) and profane the sign of the Cross as if it were merely another dance move.

I, personally, can't imagine doing these things outside of the Church, much less inside. Looking at the altar in the fashion described by the Catechism (as the Lord's cross) makes it even less likely that I am going to start either doing, supporting, or promoting such action in the near future.

Another problem is the offering to God publicly of what is materially flawed as if there is no flaw. Is it good and praiseworthy to adorn the tabernacle with rotting flowers? Is it acceptable as long as the intention is good? I can't find any justification for this whatsoever...

Is it good and praiseworthy to have several individuals with speech impediments offer the common prayers/general intercessions? Is it acceptable as long as the intention is good? Is it good and praiseworthy to have individuals who cannot sing in tune to save their lives offer the ministry of cantor at Mass? Is it acceptable as long as the intention is good? I contend that all of these things are materially bad. Why in the world should we offer to God in a public manner in the Holy Sacrifice that which is lacking? I'm not referring to the individual and private offering each one makes of himself at Mass, we can't help that we're all lacking due to original sin, but we can, as St. Paul teaches, give those among us with less honour, more honour by shielding them, just as we do our less honourable parts. We do not expose our genitals to public view, so why do we expose those at Mass with less of what is honourable to the public? It doesn't make sense to me.

If you've never seen The Princess Bride, I suggest you rent or borrow it and watch the wedding scene near the end. The very atmosphere that scene invokes is, on a natural level, why the materially flawed ought not be offered publicly to God as if there is no flaw in it. This is why there are such stringent requirements for men who are on the path to priestly ordination, both in regards to physical appearance, ability and mental formation.,
It's fortunate for you that you've never experienced these things. I hope that continues for you.

Finally, regarding the notion that "those who sing pray twice," I merely have to say that the statement taken as an absolute, on it's own, is silly. If I say the lyrics of the song Row, Row, Row Your Boat, it certainly isn't a prayer, so how would singing it making it twice prayed? If you're referring to those songs which are true prayers to God, then I am in agreement. Those songs which are filled with error and heresy which the protestants, moslems, hindus, etc. sing for religious purposes and others which are heard sung in Catholic Churches are no prayer at all.

There's no doubt that the people are invited to the altar as "the table of the Lord," but that doesn't mean that we disregard the altar as the Lord's cross and act in a casual and profane manner around it.

--hide--
The Lord Our God has decided to be with us in the most interment way Just think of what he did for our sins, to bring us back to Him. So we show him the minimum of respect, because it feels good for us. Then we treat the Eucharist like it is bread and the wine like it is wine. When it is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. We should treat it like it is the holiest of any thing here on our planet and give it the most reverence we can possible. Yet we have gotten use to it, like it is just a custom. Like just something we do, because we are Catholics and this is what we were taught to do. When you take away the reverence that is do Our God, then the world follows and just look around you at this world we live in. There is no reverence for Life any more. This was Gods starting block with us, he created us and gave us life and now we take life like it is nothing.


Once we give up giving God more respect then anything. God will leave us to our own means and it's not looking good out there in a Godless world. The Jews did it over and over and so have we Catholics??? It seems with each generation, we move further away from God and more to our selves until some thing brings us back again. I hope and pray He won't be so hard on us this time. You see God will not cause our pain, But if we choose to move away from him he will allow us to experience life without him. We are seeing this in our life time. I hope the Bishops start changing things, to bring back what God does deserve from us. I mean think of all the pagan beliefs they use to sacrifice people to there Gods.We can't even give him praise for one hour, without making it about us. We are like Cain giving an impure lamb for sacrifice to God??? How does that make any sense???

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: As far as concerts and similar activities: They are allowed and have been common in Europ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

As far as concerts and similar activities: They are allowed and have been common in European Churches for as long as Catholic Church Buildings have existed.

The rules do require that when these activities are to take place, the Blessed Sacrament must be removed from the Tabernacle and placed elsewhere then in the main part of the Church. Temporarily placed in a tabernacle in the sacristy for example. The rules also require that the activity cannot be profane; no pop concerts, or even classical music concerts or political meetings for example.

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Please cite the rules. While it may be prudent to remove the blessed sacrament, I do not believe there is a "must" rule. There most certainly is NOT a rule against classical music concerts. This happens in many large cathedrals...one example being in the Cathedral Basilica in St. Louis, under the direction of a very orthodox and extremely "by the book" Archbishop Burke (now cardinal)/.

I'm not arguing with you and saying that pop concerts would be appropriate. I'm simply challenging the idea of saying "the rules say this" when no such rule exists.

Jan 28th 2013 new
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said: Please cite the rules. While it may be prudent to remove the blessed sacramen...
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said:





Please cite the rules. While it may be prudent to remove the blessed sacrament, I do not believe there is a "must" rule. There most certainly is NOT a rule against classical music concerts. This happens in many large cathedrals...one example being in the Cathedral Basilica in St. Louis, under the direction of a very orthodox and extremely "by the book" Archbishop Burke (now cardinal)/.





I'm not arguing with you and saying that pop concerts would be appropriate. I'm simply challenging the idea of saying "the rules say this" when no such rule exists.

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The only concert I attended at that Basillica was one where they sang religious songs such as Ave Maria and there was no clapping afterwards even though the sound was amazing.
Jan 28th 2013 new

Several points:

First, as I've played about 200 weddings, I am bummed over the loss of reverence. There are certain norms and etiquette that are missed.


However, I'm seeing here lots of people trying to define reverence to their own standards. Or making up rules that dont' exist. Or disparaging what the current church allows. Reverence most certainly does NOT equal quiet. It can be, depending on the circumstances and time, place, or moment in the liturgy. Not always.


Besides the altar being the cross, it is also a marriage bed and an empty tomb. Expressive joyful singing may not have happened around the cross, but I'm willing to bet it happened around the empty tomb.


There has been judgments made that someone's manifestation of charismatic gifts isn't reverent. Yikes. Who are any of us to judge someone else's prayer, or how the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest his spiritual gifts?


Women reading liturgical readings IS NOT a violation of canon law or GIRM.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Brenda-74660 said: The only concert I attended at that Basillica was one where they sang religious songs such as Av...
(Quote) Brenda-74660 said:

The only concert I attended at that Basillica was one where they sang religious songs such as Ave Maria and there was no clapping afterwards even though the sound was amazing.
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The mission statement off the web site:

Mission Statement

Cathedral Concerts mission is to present affordable live concerts in the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis featuring world-class musicians and the finest repertoire of sacred and classical music for the cultural enrichment, education, and enjoyment of the entire region.

Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Carrie-529869 said: Several points: First, as I've played about 200 weddings, I am bummed over t...
(Quote) Carrie-529869 said:

Several points:

First, as I've played about 200 weddings, I am bummed over the loss of reverence. There are certain norms and etiquette that are missed.


However, I'm seeing here lots of people trying to define reverence to their own standards. Or making up rules that dont' exist. Or disparaging what the current church allows. Reverence most certainly does NOT equal quiet. It can be, depending on the circumstances and time, place, or moment in the liturgy. Not always.


Besides the altar being the cross, it is also a marriage bed and an empty tomb. Expressive joyful singing may not have happened around the cross, but I'm willing to bet it happened around the empty tomb.


There has been judgments made that someone's manifestation of charismatic gifts isn't reverent. Yikes. Who are any of us to judge someone else's prayer, or how the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest his spiritual gifts?


Women reading liturgical readings IS NOT a violation of canon law or GIRM.

--hide--



"Defining reverence by our own standards" may be something that I and others do but your behaviour has an impact on how I practise my Faith. I was told off quite aggresively after Mass after lighting a candle at a side altar when I asked a bunch of ladies if they could please continue their conversation outside. Their interpretation of what a Church is is miles away from mine. Does that mean they have the right to talk because I am not "up with the times".



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