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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Athanasius

Jan 27th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: I do read and listen and watch. I watch the News in 5 languages, read the news in 3 la...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

I do read and listen and watch. I watch the News in 5 languages, read the news in 3 languages, I was alive and studying Revolutionary and Early American history when Mr Nixon was asked to leave. I am NOT tring to alter any Americans political veiws, I dont live there and its none of my concern what conspiracy theories are believed or not.

I only know what is said on CNN, ABC, CBS and Fox News, as well as EWTN as far as US news media is concerned. But I also know from RTV (Russia) and CCTV (China) and France Carate (France) and the BBC and BSkyB think of what is being done. I even watch El Jezzera and Iranian PressTV, so I dont just pick up titbits floating in the either. My past job was analysis of FACT and gossip for a Government arm, so I do a lot more than just pick and choose.

Impeachment is your countries standard, outlined in the Declaration of Independance and Constitution not mine. I may be old but Im not that old.

All I said was the people mentioned had not been impeached for criminal activity by the second arm of your Government the Congress, nor by the third arm The Supreme Court. Nixon was.

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Hold on there, Patrick, before you get so defensive.

You offered an opinion in a forum about Abraham Lincoln that you thought Richard Nixon was worse (or words to that effect). Some of us pointed out that Richard Nixon was in no way nearly as bad as Abraham Lincoln. You started out your reply to me with the words, "All I know is..." (which implies, I don't know much, but from what I come across from your news sources, et cetera, et cetera).

I then state, "It sounds as if you are picking up bits of information that reach you from the US (or words to that effect)" and you get defensive and storm back here telling us how smart you are.

And I point out the lack of logic in your argument. If impeachment for criminal activity is the standard, then you would have to put Bill Clinton up on the list near Richard Nixon. This of course wouldn't make sense, because Bill Clinton did not push the role of the presidency anywhere near the point Abraham Lincoln did. So the argument using impeachment as a standard did not (and does not) make sense. (And I suspect that you like Bill Clinton, and probably don't remember what you were doing in December 1998 when the Articles of Impeachment against him were passed by the House of Representatives.)

Impeachment is hardly a metric to measure how good or bad a president is, regardless of how well you might remember it.

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Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: I agree. Unfortunately, to get the adult version of American history you have to go...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




I agree. Unfortunately, to get the adult version of American history you have to go out and read it on your own; everything else in the mainstream isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

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You know, it's only in the last few years I've been able to read the "adult version" of American History. You know, the stuff they don't teach in school at any level.

Shocking, isn't it?

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Jan 28th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: NO its the Divine Rights of Kings not the Divine Obligations of Kings WE ALL HAVE DIVI...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

NO its the Divine Rights of Kings not the Divine Obligations of Kings WE ALL HAVE DIVINE OBLIGATIONS

What part of Thomas Auquinus in particular are we disgussing

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In the words of Iñigo Montoya from "The Princess Bride," "you keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means."

youtu.be

The Catholic concept concerning Monarchy is one of Divine origin of power. That is to say that authority is granted by God to rulers to rule, or that they become the legitimate authority by God's permitting will.

When we hear of the "Divine Right of Kings," we think of the supposed absolutism more appropriate to so-called "Enlightened" rulers, most of whom were in fact quite tyrannical.

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Hold on there, Patrick, before you get so defensive.You offered an opinion in a...
(Quote) William-607613 said:



Hold on there, Patrick, before you get so defensive.

You offered an opinion in a forum about Abraham Lincoln that you thought Richard Nixon was worse (or words to that effect). Some of us pointed out that Richard Nixon was in no way nearly as bad as Abraham Lincoln. You started out your reply to me with the words, "All I know is..." (which implies, I don't know much, but from what I come across from your news sources, et cetera, et cetera).

I then state, "It sounds as if you are picking up bits of information that reach you from the US (or words to that effect)" and you get defensive and storm back here telling us how smart you are.

And I point out the lack of logic in your argument. If impeachment for criminal activity is the standard, then you would have to put Bill Clinton up on the list near Richard Nixon. This of course wouldn't make sense, because Bill Clinton did not push the role of the presidency anywhere near the point Abraham Lincoln did. So the argument using impeachment as a standard did not (and does not) make sense. (And I suspect that you like Bill Clinton, and probably don't remember what you were doing in December 1998 when the Articles of Impeachment against him were passed by the House of Representatives.)

Impeachment is hardly a metric to measure how good or bad a president is, regardless of how well you might remember it.

--hide--

Sorry. But I wasn't trying to be defensive or aggressive, what I was trying to say was the Impeachment was the standard or the more accurately the process of Presidential judgement. But Nixon had to do something pretty bad and history has proved them right. He was a crook. True being a crook doesn't neccesarily make them a bad person or indeed invalidate any good policies he may have initiated.

Ultimately it comes down to the electorate to decide. For instance in Australia Goff Whitlam acted unconstitutionally forcing the Governor-General to sack him as Prime Minister. A temporary PM was appointed from the opposition, Parliament was disolved, a new election called buut Goff was soundly beaten in the polls and the opposition became government by the electorate, so you could therefore argue that Goff was a bad PM.

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said: In the words of Iñigo Montoya from "The Princess Bride," "you kee...
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:

In the words of Iñigo Montoya from "The Princess Bride," "you keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means."

youtu.be

The Catholic concept concerning Monarchy is one of Divine origin of power. That is to say that authority is granted by God to rulers to rule, or that they become the legitimate authority by God's permitting will.

When we hear of the "Divine Right of Kings," we think of the supposed absolutism more appropriate to so-called "Enlightened" rulers, most of whom were in fact quite tyrannical.

--hide--

Alas the Great Pirate Roberts replies the Divine Right of Kings comes from the fact they are annoitted by God to rule their lands and subjects at the whim and command of God. The Divine Obligation is the obligation WE ALL have to obey and live as Gods creations and obey His laws and Commandments

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: Sorry. But I wasn't trying to be defensive or aggressive, what I was trying to say...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

Sorry. But I wasn't trying to be defensive or aggressive, what I was trying to say was the Impeachment was the standard or the more accurately the process of Presidential judgement. But Nixon had to do something pretty bad and history has proved them right. He was a crook. True being a crook doesn't neccesarily make them a bad person or indeed invalidate any good policies he may have initiated.

Ultimately it comes down to the electorate to decide. For instance in Australia Goff Whitlam acted unconstitutionally forcing the Governor-General to sack him as Prime Minister. A temporary PM was appointed from the opposition, Parliament was disolved, a new election called buut Goff was soundly beaten in the polls and the opposition became government by the electorate, so you could therefore argue that Goff was a bad PM.

--hide--



Patrick,

Please keep in mind that impeachment is a political process as well as a legal one.


You state that Nixon had to do something pretty bad, which was that he was a crook.


Do you really believe that Nixon was bad because of his impeachment? Really?


Did he ever drop an atomic bomb on a city?


Please, Patrick. I think you're a very educated guy, but your forays into American politics show a real lack of knowledge on the subject.



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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Patrick,Please keep in mind that impeachment is a political process as well...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




Patrick,

Please keep in mind that impeachment is a political process as well as a legal one.


You state that Nixon had to do something pretty bad, which was that he was a crook.


Do you really believe that Nixon was bad because of his impeachment? Really?


Did he ever drop an atomic bomb on a city?


Please, Patrick. I think you're a very educated guy, but your forays into American politics show a real lack of knowledge on the subject.



--hide--

He wanted to drop the bomb on the North Vietnameseas did General Curtis Lemay.

I agree I know little about the day to day actions of US politics and as I am not an American nor live in America my opinion of Nixion or indeed any US President is irrellevant as I dont have live there or with their actions, actually I do have to live with their actions. But as a matter of debate well, every Man is free to participate in an educated debate.

But to be honest I dont really understand half of the things US politians do or why, as I am sure you dont understand New Zealand politics or politians. I am taking part in an academic debate only not a fight for life or salvation. I have all ready had many a fight for life and been personally declared dead 5 times but am still here like most weeds Im hard to get rid off, but I take little seriously. As I know life is short and arbitory, and if I come across as taking the piss as we say I apologise I mean no offence.

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: He wanted to drop the bomb on the North Vietnameseas did General Curtis Lemay. ...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

He wanted to drop the bomb on the North Vietnameseas did General Curtis Lemay.

I agree I know little about the day to day actions of US politics and as I am not an American nor live in America my opinion of Nixion or indeed any US President is irrellevant as I dont have live there or with their actions, actually I do have to live with their actions. But as a matter of debate well, every Man is free to participate in an educated debate.

But to be honest I dont really understand half of the things US politians do or why, as I am sure you dont understand New Zealand politics or politians. I am taking part in an academic debate only not a fight for life or salvation. I have all ready had many a fight for life and been personally declared dead 5 times but am still here like most weeds Im hard to get rid off, but I take little seriously. As I know life is short and arbitory, and if I come across as taking the piss as we say I apologise I mean no offence.

--hide--


The answer to the question was a simple, "No," Patrick. He didn't drop the Bomb on anyone.

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Feb 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: He wanted to drop the bomb on the North Vietnameseas did General Curtis Lemay. ...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

He wanted to drop the bomb on the North Vietnameseas did General Curtis Lemay.

I agree I know little about the day to day actions of US politics and as I am not an American nor live in America my opinion of Nixion or indeed any US President is irrellevant as I dont have live there or with their actions, actually I do have to live with their actions. But as a matter of debate well, every Man is free to participate in an educated debate.

But to be honest I dont really understand half of the things US politians do or why, as I am sure you dont understand New Zealand politics or politians. I am taking part in an academic debate only not a fight for life or salvation. I have all ready had many a fight for life and been personally declared dead 5 times but am still here like most weeds Im hard to get rid off, but I take little seriously. As I know life is short and arbitory, and if I come across as taking the piss as we say I apologise I mean no offence.

--hide--


Patrick,

My first reply was a bit abrupt. What I wanted to point out is that a lot of people want to do a lot of things. He was a commander in chief who didn't target a population center with an atomic bomb and you would refer to him as a Bad President. There was another commander in chief who targeted not one but two population centers with atomic bombs, but you don't mention him as Bad.

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: The answer to the question was a simple, "No," Patrick. He didn't drop th...
(Quote) William-607613 said:



The answer to the question was a simple, "No," Patrick. He didn't drop the Bomb on anyone.

--hide--

True He didnt only President Truman did. Twice. In his Biography he says he never lost a nights sleep over it. Unlike the pilot of the Enola Gay, how in his memiors states he was horrified at what he saw when he returned to Hiroshima, some 2 years later, and was staggered at the loss of life.

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