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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Patrick,My first reply was a bit abrupt. What I wanted to point out is that a l...
(Quote) William-607613 said:



Patrick,

My first reply was a bit abrupt. What I wanted to point out is that a lot of people want to do a lot of things. He was a commander in chief who didn't target a population center with an atomic bomb and you would refer to him as a Bad President. There was another commander in chief who targeted not one but two population centers with atomic bombs, but you don't mention him as Bad.

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William as I said to me as an academic outsider it is of no relevance what I think of Nixon. I am just taking part in an academic and interest debate. While Nixon wiped his bum with the Constitution, he did visit China, make peace moves toward Mao and tried to negotiate with North Korea. He also began the ground work for non prolifiation and the SALT discussions.

You make an interesting point, is being bad the same as being evil? The answer is no. And if you compare the destruction of some 200000+ people and the on going radiation sickness of 500000+ more with breaking into a building, manipulating the election and playing fast and loose with the electorate, then clearly I have to say the person who used the bomb was evil and person who played hows your father with the law was a naughty boy.

The means never justify the ends. And No you werent abrupt, I have had much much worse in my careers so no worries no harm. As I said I do tend to take these things less seriously than others because of being so close to death so many times, it give you another perspective on whats truely important in life. So I argue basically as the Devils advocate, not always my true feelings. Curse of the jobs wink

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: William as I said to me as an academic outsider it is of no relevance what I think of ...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

William as I said to me as an academic outsider it is of no relevance what I think of Nixon. I am just taking part in an academic and interest debate. While Nixon wiped his bum with the Constitution, he did visit China, make peace moves toward Mao and tried to negotiate with North Korea. He also began the ground work for non prolifiation and the SALT discussions.

You make an interesting point, is being bad the same as being evil? The answer is no. And if you compare the destruction of some 200000+ people and the on going radiation sickness of 500000+ more with breaking into a building, manipulating the election and playing fast and loose with the electorate, then clearly I have to say the person who used the bomb was evil and person who played hows your father with the law was a naughty boy.

The means never justify the ends. And No you werent abrupt, I have had much much worse in my careers so no worries no harm. As I said I do tend to take these things less seriously than others because of being so close to death so many times, it give you another perspective on whats truely important in life. So I argue basically as the Devils advocate, not always my true feelings. Curse of the jobs

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His point in that was to say that, compared to the deaths by Atomic bombs (the U.S. being the only country that used them on civilians), Watergate seems pretty petty.

The historical research shows, BTW, that several generals at the time, including General Eisenhower and Admiral Halsey, thought the use of the A-bomb to be completely unnecessary and barbaric, literally a new low in warfare.

Most high ranking Allied military leaders were appalled by the use of the atomic bombs. General Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces Europe, recognized that Japan was ready to surrender and said, “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” General Hap Arnold, commander of the US Army Air Corps pointed out, “Atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”

Admiral William Leahy, Truman’s chief of staff, put it this way: “The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. In being the first to use it, we adopted an ethical standard common to barbarians of the Dark Ages. Wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

www.wagingpeace.org

Actually, we adopted a far more savage one than those of the Goths who ransacked Rome. They, according to St. Augustine in the City of God (Book I, Chapter 7), did respect the Churches and did not attack those that sought sanctuary in their walls. Our standard was more in line with that of the ancient pagans.

www.newadvent.org

The Church, starting soon afterward but also with Gaudium in Spes, condemned these actions, and you can read these condemnations in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 2314.

"Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."

Fulton J. Sheen, in his talk "Youth and Sex", asks when America came to accept freedom as being completely divorced from morality, and posits that we changed in that direction on 8:15AM on August 6th, 1945 when we bombed Hiroshima. Cardinal Ratzinger, shortly before becoming Pope Benedict XVI, agreed.

youtu.be

So, fellow Catholics, do we choose the True Faith or the Americanist heresy? Who are the real un-Americans, Presidents Truman, Bush, and Obama, or Fulton J. Sheen, Dwight David Eisenhowere and Dorothy Day?

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Feb 2nd 2013 new

Then there is this article on the Church's position on the Atomic Bombing. I know there are those that disagree with me on this, but this is what the Church teaches on this.

orientem.blogspot.com

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Feb 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Steven-706921 said: His point in that was to say that, compared to the deaths by Atomic bombs (the U.S. bei...
(Quote) Steven-706921 said:

His point in that was to say that, compared to the deaths by Atomic bombs (the U.S. being the only country that used them on civilians), Watergate seems pretty petty.

The historical research shows, BTW, that several generals at the time, including General Eisenhower and Admiral Halsey, thought the use of the A-bomb to be completely unnecessary and barbaric, literally a new low in warfare.

Most high ranking Allied military leaders were appalled by the use of the atomic bombs. General Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces Europe, recognized that Japan was ready to surrender and said, “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” General Hap Arnold, commander of the US Army Air Corps pointed out, “Atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse.”

Admiral William Leahy, Truman’s chief of staff, put it this way: “The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. In being the first to use it, we adopted an ethical standard common to barbarians of the Dark Ages. Wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

www.wagingpeace.org

Actually, we adopted a far more savage one than those of the Goths who ransacked Rome. They, according to St. Augustine in the City of God (Book I, Chapter 7), did respect the Churches and did not attack those that sought sanctuary in their walls. Our standard was more in line with that of the ancient pagans.

www.newadvent.org

The Church, starting soon afterward but also with Gaudium in Spes, condemned these actions, and you can read these condemnations in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 2314.

"Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."

Fulton J. Sheen, in his talk "Youth and Sex", asks when America came to accept freedom as being completely divorced from morality, and posits that we changed in that direction on 8:15AM on August 6th, 1945 when we bombed Hiroshima. Cardinal Ratzinger, shortly before becoming Pope Benedict XVI, agreed.

youtu.be

So, fellow Catholics, do we choose the True Faith or the Americanist heresy? Who are the real un-Americans, Presidents Truman, Bush, and Obama, or Fulton J. Sheen, Dwight David Eisenhowere and Dorothy Day?

--hide--

Thats what I said

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Feb 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-624504 said: Alas the Great Pirate Roberts replies the Divine Right of Kings comes from the fact th...
(Quote) Patrick-624504 said:

Alas the Great Pirate Roberts replies the Divine Right of Kings comes from the fact they are annoitted by God to rule their lands and subjects at the whim and command of God. The Divine Obligation is the obligation WE ALL have to obey and live as Gods creations and obey His laws and Commandments

--hide--

It also noted that the kings were annointed to rule in Temporal affairs under God's laws and, therefore, were accountable to God. It also meant that where there was a conflict between Church and Temporal, the Spiritual held precedence over the temporal, whereas in Liberal Republics the opposite is true.

The later was the very goal of the archetects of the modern liberal republic, Hobbes and John Locke.

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Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: What are your thoughts about the Catholic monarchism common among a lot of traditionalists? The M...
(Quote) John-220051 said: What are your thoughts about the Catholic monarchism common among a lot of traditionalists?

The Monarchy Is the Best Regime, for It More Easily Favors Peace

It is fitting to add some representative texts of Saint Thomas Aquinas to the pontifical texts quoted in testimony of the Churchs social doctrine on the subject of Monarchical regimes given the prominence of his thinking in traditional Catholic teaching.

In De Regimine Principum, having set forth these preliminary points, it behooves men to live in society and therefore it is indispensable that a ruler govern them correctly, Saint Thomas goes on to say:

We must now inquire what is better for a province or a city: whether to be ruled by one man or by many. Now this may be considered from the very purpose of government. For the aim of any ruler should be directed towards securing the welfare of whatever he undertakes to rule. The duty of the pilot, for instance, is to preserve his ship amidst the perils of the sea and to bring it to the port of safety.

Now, the welfare and safety of a multitude formed into a society is the preservation of its unity, which is called peace, and which, if taken away, the benefit of social life is lost and moreover the multitude in its disagreement becomes a burden to itself.

The chief concern of the ruler of a multitude, therefore, should be to procure the unity of peace: and it is not legitimate for him to deliberate whether he shall establish peace in the multitude subject to him, just as a physician does not deliberate whether he shall heal the sick man that is charged to him. For no one should deliberate about an end that he is obliged to seek, but only about the means to attain that end. Wherefore, the Apostle, having commended the unity of the faithful people, says: Be ye careful to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3). The more efficacious, therefore, a government is in keeping the unity of peace, the more useful it will be. For we call that more useful which leads the better to the end. Now, it is clear that what is one, can more efficaciously bring about unity than what is several; just as the most efficacious cause of heat is that which is by its nature hot. Therefore the rule of one man is more efficient than the rule of many.

Furthermore, it is evident that several persons could by no means keep a multitude from harm if they totally disagreed, for a certain union is necessary among them if they are to rule at all. Several men, for instance, could not pull a ship in one direction unless joined together in some fashion. Now, several are said to be united to the extent that they act as one. So one man rules better than several who come near being one.

Again, whatever is in accord with nature is best, for in all things nature does what is best. Now, every natural governance is governance by one. In the multitude of bodily members there is one that moves them all, namely, the heart; and among the powers of the soul one power presides as chief, namely, the reason. Even among the bees there is one queen and in the whole universe there is One God, Maker and Ruler of all things and this is reasonable. For every multitude is derived from unity. Wherefore, artificial things imitate natural things and since the work of art is better according as it attains a closer likeness to what is in nature, it necessarily follows that it is best, in the case of a human multitude, it is that one person rule it.

This is also evident from experience; for provinces or cities which are not ruled by one person are torn with dissensions and are tossed about without peace so that the complaint seems to be fulfilled which the Lord uttered through the Prophet: Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard (Jer. 12:10). But, on the contrary, provinces and cities, which are ruled under one king enjoy peace, flourish in justice and delight in prosperity. Hence, the Lord by His prophets promises to His people as a great reward that He will give them one head and that one Prince will be in the midst of them.

The eminent Thomist, Fr. Victorino Rodriguez, O.P., adds the following comment to this explanation of the Angelic Doctor, which he enriches with other texts of Saint Thomas:

On preferring monarchy to preserve the peace of societyIt is undeniable that peace, in the positive, dynamic sense of tranquil liberty (Cicero, II Philipp., chap. 13, 1), is the single most important factor for the common good, if not a synthesis of all its constituents and the aspiration of any honest government. Now then, insofar as peace partakes of order or unity, in and of itself it has a more direct and straight connection with a unitary or monarchic form of government than with other more pluralist or dispersed forms. This is one aspect of government that is stressed in these chapters; for intrinsic reasons of unity, through analogy with the natural order, from the lessons of history and because it is in accord with theocratic government. Later we will see also how a democratic government offers advantages for the peace of society.

Now, the best government is government by one. The reason for this is that government is nothing but the directing of the things governed to their proper end, which consists in some good. But unity belongs to the idea of goodness, as Boethius proves (De consolatione, iii.) from this, that all things desire good, so do they desire unity; without which they would cease to exist. For a thing exists in so far as it is one. Whence we observe that things resist division, as much as they can, and the dissolution of a thing arises from some defect therein. Therefore the intention of a ruler over a multitude is unity, or peace. Now the proper cause of unity is one. For it is clear that several cannot be the cause of unity or concord, except so far as they are united. Furthermore, what is one in itself is more apt and a better cause of unity than several things united. Therefore a multitude is better governed by one than by several.

Plinio Corra de Oliveira, Nobility and Analogous Traditional Elites in the Allocutions of Pius XII: A Theme Illuminating American Social History(York, Penn.: The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and Property, 1993), Appendix IV, pp. 397-399.

www.tfp.org
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There's a lot in your post I've never heard of..but over the last year or so I've came to the conclusion that a King is needed for our church, in fact they go hand and hand. The whole idea of any republic is when any given populace can live freely without sin or support, tolerate, or engage in vices. And it is a known fact among thinking men that the American republic ended with the civil war.

The proliferation of organized crime in the early twenith century paved the way of the police state we have today. Technocracy is the unfair rule with matrix databases on arrest records that are sold to third market parties. They are then supported by corporate employers who force prospective employees to get petty records expunged or deny them employment on a petty offense that happened twenty years ago. Under the rule of the Roman Catholic Kings that unfair system of socio-economics and intrusion of privacy would never have come to light.

Those are only a few examples of the New World Order.. designed and run the Jewish elite and the Masonic idiots. They rule over us with deceit and the promotion of temptation i.e. greed, prostitution..(read the proverbs of Solomon) and you will understand the cattle rustlers with clarity. We should know better than to support and fall into their traps, but I guess we have to learn our lessons.

Those of us like myself know that the Judeo-Masonic money men should not be supported whenever possible. We need to form families that produce our own goods and services. It will take a great deal of sacrifices but if successful one family will eventually produce a future King that will bring us order once again.

We need Roman Catholics going to church together, we need Roman Catholics working side by side, we need Roman Catholics dancing and singing together. We need our own living space free from usury and the vices of the grossly large and unfriendly modern Judeo-Masonic metropolises.

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Feb 9th 2013 new

Ding ding ding! Wake up! WHERE have you been? That ship done sailed a century or more ago.


It's been at least 120 years since the Church wisely ended its ridiculous rear-guard action against democratic and republican forms of government. (Not the parties but the forms of government.)


All this fairy tale nonsense about a Catholic monarchy is crazy talk. To spome extent, it still exists in name only in countries like Luxembourg, Leichtenstein, and Monaco.


HOW MANY TIMES did jesus say His kingdom was "not of this world"?? So why would we try to establish it here - except in our hearts?

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Feb 9th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Ding ding ding! Wake up! WHERE have you been? That ship done sailed a century or more ago.
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Ding ding ding! Wake up! WHERE have you been? That ship done sailed a century or more ago.


It's been at least 120 years since the Church wisely ended its ridiculous rear-guard action against democratic and republican forms of government. (Not the parties but the forms of government.)


All this fairy tale nonsense about a Catholic monarchy is crazy talk. To spome extent, it still exists in name only in countries like Luxembourg, Leichtenstein, and Monaco.


HOW MANY TIMES did jesus say His kingdom was "not of this world"?? So why would we try to establish it here - except in our hearts?

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Because what we have here clearly doesn't work; the fifty million Americans who were murdered during pregnancy in the last forty years could point this out to you, if they could speak.

But I'm open to suggestions, Dave. What form of government do you think would work best?


(By the way, the quote from the New Testament you cite was never taken as an admonition against monarchies.)







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Feb 9th 2013 new

(Quote) John-711000 said: There's a lot in your post I've never heard of..but over the last year or so I...
(Quote) John-711000 said:

There's a lot in your post I've never heard of..but over the last year or so I've came to the conclusion that a King is needed for our church, in fact they go hand and hand. The whole idea of any republic is when any given populace can live freely without sin or support, tolerate, or engage in vices. And it is a known fact among thinking men that the American republic ended with the civil war.

The proliferation of organized crime in the early twenith century paved the way of the police state we have today. Technocracy is the unfair rule with matrix databases on arrest records that are sold to third market parties. They are then supported by corporate employers who force prospective employees to get petty records expunged or deny them employment on a petty offense that happened twenty years ago. Under the rule of the Roman Catholic Kings that unfair system of socio-economics and intrusion of privacy would never have come to light.

Those are only a few examples of the New World Order.. designed and run the Jewish elite and the Masonic idiots. They rule over us with deceit and the promotion of temptation i.e. greed, prostitution..(read the proverbs of Solomon) and you will understand the cattle rustlers with clarity. We should know better than to support and fall into their traps, but I guess we have to learn our lessons.

Those of us like myself know that the Judeo-Masonic money men should not be supported whenever possible. We need to form families that produce our own goods and services. It will take a great deal of sacrifices but if successful one family will eventually produce a future King that will bring us order once again.

We need Roman Catholics going to church together, we need Roman Catholics working side by side, we need Roman Catholics dancing and singing together. We need our own living space free from usury and the vices of the grossly large and unfriendly modern Judeo-Masonic metropolises.

--hide--



John, you've said an awful lot here but I don't know that the answer has to be Roman Catholics living amongst themselves to the exclusion of everyone else. It is a worthy goal to have a Catholic viewpoint as a common denominator in a society, but Dave's got a point in his comment. (We are not here to create Heaven on earth.)

Your comments about the Republic lasting until the Civil War are true, but a better argument is that the government the Founding Fathers established was unique in its time, its place, and its people. Don't forget we were talking about a very small group of northern European protestants (British Anglicans and German Lutherans) who were, by and large, farmers. A country with our population and its diversity would never have fit into the government that was laid out some two hundred and forty years ago; this whole thing wasn't going to work even in the absence of the groups you mention.

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Feb 9th 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Because what we have here clearly doesn't work; the fifty million Americans who were murder...
(Quote) William-607613 said:

Because what we have here clearly doesn't work; the fifty million Americans who were murdered during pregnancy in the last forty years could point this out to you, if they could speak.

But I'm open to suggestions, Dave. What form of government do you think would work best?


(By the way, the quote from the New Testament you cite was never taken as an admonition against monarchies.)

--hide--


The new Testament says absolutely NOTHING about the preferred form of governemnt. They are what they are. God's kingdom is not of this world. Render unto Caesar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's. Right? I've lived in an absolute religious monarchy (Saudi Arabia) and it was a hot mess of corruption and intolerance. Do you really think a Catholic monarchy could be much better? If so, please read your history books a little more closely. Even in Spain where the king is referred to as "His Catholic Majesty", the government is parliamentary and often socialist, abortion is legal, and the monarch has little or no actual role in governing. Monaco, with a Catholic monarch is a police state and packed to the rafters with tax cheats, casinos, crooked banks, and nude sunbathers. Oh the glories of a Catholic monarchy! Mix politics with religion and religion invariably suffers very badly. Do you want that?


Just thank God every day that we have the First Amendment here in the USA and be grateful we're not living in China, Indonesia, Pakistan, The Palestinian Territory, Nigeria, or other countries where Catholics really suffer persecution. Spare us the dire "Chicken Little" forecasts and simply live within the system we have. We can and should work to improve things to the extent we can but accept it when there's no way to fully improve things. GOD's KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. How many times did Jesus say that? God's kingdom is within our hearts, so focus there. Enough silliness about establishing a Catholic monarchy. That's not only an irrational pipe dream, it's also delusional and (forgive me for saying so) but more than a little bit crazy.



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