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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Feb 6th 2013 new

Nope, JP II consecrated the world, not Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart in 1984. In 1984 the Holy Father himself acknowledged in the presence of tens of thousands of witnesses, both during and after the ceremony, that the people of Russia were still “awaiting our consecration and confiding.” The next day these statements were reported in the Pope’s own newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, and the Italian Bishops’ publication, Avvenire. Right after the 1984 consecration Sister Lucy said that it did not fulfill Heaven's request. I don't believe that Sister Lucy changed her mind later to say the 1984 consecration did fulfill Heaven's request. It was typed out where every letter from Sister Lucy beforehand was hand written.

The promises of a proper consecration of Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart are that Russia would be converted and a period of peace would be given to the world. 29 years after the consecration of the world by JP II in 1984 Russia has not converted to the One True Catholic Faith, nor have we seen a period of peace. The promises of a proper consecration of Russia is also suppose to prevent the annihilation of nations. Haiti, Iraq, the Arab Spring, Syria, the Tokushima disaster in Japan, 300,000 Catholic martyrs in East Timor before it got it's independence in 1999 and I could go on. Would you call that the annihilation of nations? I'm sure some people in those countries may.

On May 13, 2010 in his homily at Fatima, as reported by Vatican Information Service, Pope Benedict said, “We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”

You can read it yourself from the Vatican web site, 8th paragraph.
www.vatican.va

For the 10 years before Pope Benedict said this above the official story on Fatima was that it was complete. In the 2000 release of the Third Secret it was reported that the assassination attempt on JP II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret. I wonder what changed Pope Benedict's mind.

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Nope, JP II consecrated the world, not Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart in 1984. In 1984 the H...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Nope, JP II consecrated the world, not Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart in 1984. In 1984 the Holy Father himself acknowledged in the presence of tens of thousands of witnesses, both during and after the ceremony, that the people of Russia were still “awaiting our consecration and confiding.” The next day these statements were reported in the Pope’s own newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, and the Italian Bishops’ publication, Avvenire. Right after the 1984 consecration Sister Lucy said that it did not fulfill Heaven's request. I don't believe that Sister Lucy changed her mind later to say the 1984 consecration did fulfill Heaven's request. It was typed out where every letter from Sister Lucy beforehand was hand written.

The promises of a proper consecration of Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart are that Russia would be converted and a period of peace would be given to the world. 29 years after the consecration of the world by JP II in 1984 Russia has not converted to the One True Catholic Faith, nor have we seen a period of peace. The promises of a proper consecration of Russia is also suppose to prevent the annihilation of nations. Haiti, Iraq, the Arab Spring, Syria, the Tokushima disaster in Japan, 300,000 Catholic martyrs in East Timor before it got it's independence in 1999 and I could go on. Would you call that the annihilation of nations? I'm sure some people in those countries may.

On May 13, 2010 in his homily at Fatima, as reported by Vatican Information Service, Pope Benedict said, “We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”

You can read it yourself from the Vatican web site, 8th paragraph.
www.vatican.va

For the 10 years before Pope Benedict said this above the official story on Fatima was that it was complete. In the 2000 release of the Third Secret it was reported that the assassination attempt on JP II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret. I wonder what changed Pope Benedict's mind.

--hide--



Hold on a second. The Pope saying that Fatima's prophetic message is not complete is not the same as saying that Russia has to be consecrated.

Sister Lucia herself said that Russia had been consecrated: www.spiritdaily.net

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Nope, JP II consecrated the world, not Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart in 1984. In 1984 the H...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Nope, JP II consecrated the world, not Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart in 1984. In 1984 the Holy Father himself acknowledged in the presence of tens of thousands of witnesses, both during and after the ceremony, that the people of Russia were still “awaiting our consecration and confiding.” The next day these statements were reported in the Pope’s own newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, and the Italian Bishops’ publication, Avvenire. Right after the 1984 consecration Sister Lucy said that it did not fulfill Heaven's request. I don't believe that Sister Lucy changed her mind later to say the 1984 consecration did fulfill Heaven's request. It was typed out where every letter from Sister Lucy beforehand was hand written.

The promises of a proper consecration of Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart are that Russia would be converted and a period of peace would be given to the world. 29 years after the consecration of the world by JP II in 1984 Russia has not converted to the One True Catholic Faith, nor have we seen a period of peace. The promises of a proper consecration of Russia is also suppose to prevent the annihilation of nations. Haiti, Iraq, the Arab Spring, Syria, the Tokushima disaster in Japan, 300,000 Catholic martyrs in East Timor before it got it's independence in 1999 and I could go on. Would you call that the annihilation of nations? I'm sure some people in those countries may.

On May 13, 2010 in his homily at Fatima, as reported by Vatican Information Service, Pope Benedict said, “We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”

You can read it yourself from the Vatican web site, 8th paragraph.
www.vatican.va

For the 10 years before Pope Benedict said this above the official story on Fatima was that it was complete. In the 2000 release of the Third Secret it was reported that the assassination attempt on JP II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret. I wonder what changed Pope Benedict's mind.

--hide--

Sr.Lucia said that the Consecration was what had been requested and had been accepted by Heaven. If, as the site you drew your info from is correct, then Sr Lucia took part in a massive lie by the Vatican. An unlikely occurrence for a visionary who enjoyed that intimate contact with Our Lady her whole life after Fatima.

If Sr. Lucia lied about that, then she probably lied about the appearances in the first place. If that is true, then all of us have wasted our time paying attention to an approved apparition that had not happened. That would mean, that although Rome's approval of Fatima was not done ex cathera, it has falsely been exhorting the faithful to pay attention to something that never happened. In that case, your concern that the proper consecration has not been done is a waste of time as no consecration had actually been asked for.

That in itself would create a house of cards for EVERYTHING the Vatican has said or done since Fatima. In that case, Contrary to Christ's statement that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church, the gates of hell have prevailed and Christ was a liar. If He is a liar He cannot possibly be God and if He were not God everyone who has followed Christ, without exception, including yourself have wasted their time on this whole nonsense of Religion.

That is exactly where the reasoning behind the statements you are quoting lead. Is that what you really want to maintain.

Mind you, the Church does not require any of us to pay any attention to any private revelation, even an approved one. So we are all free to believe or not believe in Fatima. But if we choose to believe that the Fatima revelations were true, then we must follow the Church. And if we follow the Church , and the Church has the letter that Sr. Lucia wrote expressing heavens approval of the 1984 Consecration, we must logically accept the fact that the proper Consecration occurred.

Sorry, Mike, I have read web site after web site on the issue. The singular most obvious thing about the web sites who insist the Consecration never took place is that they are all schismatic sites. There are others who in a neutral way merely report the arguments from both sides but do not take a stand, leaving it to the reader to make up their own mind.

But the single fact that cannot be disputed is that Sr. Lucy did say that the 1984 Consecration was what was asked for by our Lady and the Pope's action in concert with over 2200 Bishops world wide was accepted by heaven.

No site taking the position that the Consecration has not properly occurred, nor you, has been able to present any proof that Sr. Lucy did not say what she said. That single fact alone destroys the anti arguments.

Feb 6th 2013 new

Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 documents, both sites from the Vatican.

These are Pope Benedict's words from 2000 when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Earlier in the document Cardinal Sodano is saying that the assassination attempt on John Paul II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret.

"And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the secret of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: ... the events to which the third part of the secret' of Fatima refers now seem part of the past. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past."
www.vatican.va

These are Pope Benedict's words from May 13, 2010.

We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”
www.vatican.va

Clearly a change of mind.

These are also words by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger from the 2000 document.

"What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the secret: the exhortation to prayer as the path of salvation for souls and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion."

So since 1917 and decades with loyal Catholics praying for a proper consecration it all culminates in the simple request for prayer, penance and conversion, something that everry good Catholic should realize anyway.

Why do you think it took until 1989 for Sister Lucy to say that the 1984 consecration fulfilled Heavens request? And why was it typed instead of in Sister Lucy's hand writing, as usual. No Sister Lucy didn't lie Paul.

You can also see from the 2000 document that the word Russia was not even mentioned in the 1984 consecration. Pope John Paul II consecrated the world in 1984, but the request from Heaven was to specifically consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 documents, both sites from the Vatican.These are...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 documents, both sites from the Vatican.

These are Pope Benedict's words from 2000 when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Earlier in the document Cardinal Sodano is saying that the assassination attempt on John Paul II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret.

"And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the secret of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: ... the events to which the third part of the secret' of Fatima refers now seem part of the past. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past."
www.vatican.va

These are Pope Benedict's words from May 13, 2010.

We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”
www.vatican.va

Clearly a change of mind.

These are also words by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger from the 2000 document.

"What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the secret: the exhortation to prayer as the path of salvation for souls and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion."

So since 1917 and decades with loyal Catholics praying for a proper consecration it all culminates in the simple request for prayer, penance and conversion, something that everry good Catholic should realize anyway.

Why do you think it took until 1989 for Sister Lucy to say that the 1984 consecration fulfilled Heavens request? And why was it typed instead of in Sister Lucy's hand writing, as usual. No Sister Lucy didn't lie Paul.

You can also see from the 2000 document that the word Russia was not even mentioned in the 1984 consecration. Pope John Paul II consecrated the world in 1984, but the request from Heaven was to specifically consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

--hide--


Did the 1989 letter from Sister Lucia have her hand-written signature on it? It appears that you are saying that perhaps someone other than Sister Lucia may have created/typed the letter that is assumed to be from her? Is there any proof of this?

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Patricia-29176 said: (Quote) Mike-41230 said: Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 docu...
(Quote) Patricia-29176 said:

Quote:
Mike-41230 said:

Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 documents, both sites from the Vatican.

These are Pope Benedict's words from 2000 when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Earlier in the document Cardinal Sodano is saying that the assassination attempt on John Paul II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret.

"And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the secret of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: ... the events to which the third part of the secret' of Fatima refers now seem part of the past. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past."
www.vatican.va

These are Pope Benedict's words from May 13, 2010.

We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”
www.vatican.va

Clearly a change of mind.

These are also words by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger from the 2000 document.

"What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the secret: the exhortation to prayer as the path of salvation for souls and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion."

So since 1917 and decades with loyal Catholics praying for a proper consecration it all culminates in the simple request for prayer, penance and conversion, something that everry good Catholic should realize anyway.

Why do you think it took until 1989 for Sister Lucy to say that the 1984 consecration fulfilled Heavens request? And why was it typed instead of in Sister Lucy's hand writing, as usual. No Sister Lucy didn't lie Paul.

You can also see from the 2000 document that the word Russia was not even mentioned in the 1984 consecration. Pope John Paul II consecrated the world in 1984, but the request from Heaven was to specifically consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.




Did the 1989 letter from Sister Lucia have her hand-written signature on it? It appears that you are saying that perhaps someone other than Sister Lucia may have created/typed the letter that is assumed to be from her? Is there any proof of this?

--hide--

Yes Patricia but I'm sure it will be said that it's from a schismatic source.
www.fatimacrusader.com
www.fatima.org

The thing about it though is this same so called "schismatic source" is still being encouraged by cardinals and bishops.

Feb 6th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Yes Patricia but I'm sure it will be said that it's from a schismatic source.h...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Yes Patricia but I'm sure it will be said that it's from a schismatic source.
www.fatimacrusader.com
www.fatima.org

The thing about it though is this same so called "schismatic source" is still being encouraged by cardinals and bishops.

--hide--


Thanks, Mike, for posting this link, particularly the second one to fatima.org. I only skimmed it, but there is a lot of detail there. In the past, I have found that when there is a lot of detail, there is generally some truth to it. And, we do live in a corrupt world full of sinners, so I suppose anything is possible as much as I would prefer it not to be. So, I will likely read through all of the detail on this and then pray about it.

I have personally seen corruption in a huge organization that people (if they knew it) would not believe (other than the Jesuit priest who had been the prior Director of Ethics for this organization who I had several conversations with), so I know that any organization can have corruption and deceit exist within it. We know that unfortunately this has happened within the Catholic Church in the past. And, fortunately, we do know that the Holy Spirit will protect and guide the Church through these eras. I don't discount what you are saying here, but I at this point do not know what is the truth of the situation. I will however read through the link.

Feb 7th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 documents, both sites from the Vatican.These are...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Okay, side by side, from the 2000 and 2010 documents, both sites from the Vatican.

These are Pope Benedict's words from 2000 when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Earlier in the document Cardinal Sodano is saying that the assassination attempt on John Paul II was the "Pope in white" from the Third Secret.

"And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the secret of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: ... the events to which the third part of the secret' of Fatima refers now seem part of the past. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past."
www.vatican.va

These are Pope Benedict's words from May 13, 2010.

We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic message is complete.”
www.vatican.va

Clearly a change of mind.

These are also words by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger from the 2000 document.

"What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the secret: the exhortation to prayer as the path of salvation for souls and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion."

So since 1917 and decades with loyal Catholics praying for a proper consecration it all culminates in the simple request for prayer, penance and conversion, something that everry good Catholic should realize anyway.

Why do you think it took until 1989 for Sister Lucy to say that the 1984 consecration fulfilled Heavens request? And why was it typed instead of in Sister Lucy's hand writing, as usual. No Sister Lucy didn't lie Paul.

You can also see from the 2000 document that the word Russia was not even mentioned in the 1984 consecration. Pope John Paul II consecrated the world in 1984, but the request from Heaven was to specifically consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

--hide--

The note was signed in her own hand. Since you admit that Sr. Lucia did not lie, why do you then refuse to believe her when she attested to the fact that the Consecration was what the Virgin had asked for and God had accepted it. She also told the Cardinal Archbishop of Portugal in person.

Everything you mention until your last 2 paragraphs has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Consecration took place. The fact that one of more prophesy has not come true says absolutely nothing about the validity of the Consecration.

Sr Lucia could have waited until 1989 for any number of reasons; for example, she was a Cloistered nun not generally exposed to the media or because because no one questioned the whole thing until then. In the latter case, the question of the appropriateness of the Consecration were raised by schismatics. and schismatics are the only ones publishing all the tracts insisting the Consecration did not occur.

God works on His own timetable not ours. You might also have noticed that since 1984, Western Europe has gone almost totally secular. Our own country is on the fast track to perdition. Is God constrained by some prophecies at Fatima to refrain from punishing wrong doing?

As for the Conversion of Russia. Our Lady's prediction has been fulfilled in two ways. Communism was overthrown and the Country is coming back to God. Russia is one of the areas of the world where the Church is growing at a phenomenal rate. Both Catholic and Orthodox seminaries are crammed with students and long waiting lists of candidates that they have no room for.

Man has free will and God does not interfere with man's exercise of it. Therefore, the will of God can appear to be thwarted by man's sinfulness. To more fully understand this phenomena, reread the Old Testament and see how often God made promises to Israel that appear to never be carried out because of the hardness of their hearts and turning away from God.

The Church has spoken on this issue. Sr. Lucia has spoken on the issue. The case is settled, whether you believe it or not.

Feb 7th 2013 new

(Quote) Mike-41230 said: Yes Patricia but I'm sure it will be said that it's from a schismatic source.h...
(Quote) Mike-41230 said:

Yes Patricia but I'm sure it will be said that it's from a schismatic source.
www.fatimacrusader.com
www.fatima.org

The thing about it though is this same so called "schismatic source" is still being encouraged by cardinals and bishops.

--hide--

The Fatima Crusader was started by Nicholas Gruner, a defrocked priest. The Fatima Network is an organ of the Fatima Crusader.

Try again using some Catholic sites.

Which Cardinals and which bishops? And since when does an individual Bishop or Cardinal or even a Group of them acquire or been endowed with infallibility.

The acts and pronouncements of a group of Bishops meeting in synod or Council only acquires Infallibility when their acts or pronouncements are approved by the Pope.

Feb 7th 2013 new

That's right Patricia, the Holy Spirit will protect and guide the Church through this. What most don't understand though is that the consecration of Russia is not for the benefit of practising Catholics but for those outside of the Church. Mary wants to save souls. So as Catholics that have been given the commission to take His Word to all peoples and nations we should be doing all that we can to encourage the Pope in union with all the Bishops to perform a proper consecration of Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart. Do you not think that many other countries would follow if Russia converted after a proper consecration?

Well Paul, Father Gruner doesn't just have the encouragement of Cardinals and Bishops, he has had Archbishops and Bishops speak at the Fatima Conferences he has organized in Rome.

Fatima Challenge Conference; May 2010
www.fatimachallenge.com
Speakers included one Bishop Emeritus.
www.fatimachallenge.com

Consecration Now Conference; May 2010
www.consecrationnow.com
Speakers included one Archbishop Emeritus, one Bishop Emeritus and one Bishop.
www.consecrationnow.com

Fatima: Your Last Chance Conference; May 2012
www.fatimayourlastchance.com
Speakers included one Archbishop and one Bishop
www.fatimayourlastchance.com

Paul you say "Both Catholic and Orthodox seminaries are crammed with students". So I tried to verify this. What I did find is this page that says "A decade ago the new Holy Spirit Seminary in Lviv was just a dream - now, thanks to you, 200 seminarians study there."
www.aidtochurch.org

But Lviv is not in Russia, it is in the west of the Ukraine close to the Polish border. And just 200 seminarians is not near enough for a population of 148 million people in Russia. This online book says that the Roman Catholic population of Russia is just 0.2 %, that is less than 1 % of the population. Granted that book was written in 2002, but that was still 18 years after JP II consecrated the world in 1984.
books.google.ca

This page says "Therefore, between 1917 and 1924 the Soviet government had ruthlessly reduced the Catholic population in Russia, had destroyed its hierarchy, had instilled fear into the laity, had taught its children atheism, and had completed one of the most savage attacks on religion in the modern world."
www.loyno.edu

I have read that Catholic priests still have to have a visa to offer the Holy Mass in Russia and are often refused a visa. Although a few months ago I did read that there was one Catholic Church in the far east of Russia, close to the Pacific that was being rebuilt.

Paul I would love to believe that the Catholic Church is flourishing in Russia but everything that I have read shows the opposite. Can you prove me wrong?

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