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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Feb 11th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: There are over 1 million abortions a year in America. I dont know how many there are worldwide ...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

There are over 1 million abortions a year in America. I dont know how many there are worldwide but I imagine it is in the tens of millions. All the efforts of the pro-life movement in the 40 years of Roe v. Wade tragically has only produced minimal results. A recent poll was released that showed support for abortion rights was at record highs.

Now, certainly I applaud everyone on the pro-life front line. I have tended to focus my efforts on helping elect pro-life politicians but certainly I could do more and don't claim to be without sin.

I said that I do have sympathy for women who have had abortions and repent. Simply feeling guilt or bad about their decisions I feel is insufficient. You have to ask for God's forgiveness and complete a penance, which involves trying to prevent others from making the same mistakes. Those women that have done that I applaud them.


Now, in this particular case, it involved a woman getting a late term abortion. Women who get early term abortions, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they felt that at that stage of pregnancy a baby is simply a "potential life" and not a "life." Obviously, this a flawed way of thinking but I can understand it. Also, early term abortions, they have yet to feel the baby kicking and truly growing inside them so I can see as a way of just trying to be done with it, how women can come to such a tragic decision.


But at 7.7 months???? Come on!!! Why is this woman innocent and the doctor is solely responsible? If we keep giving women a pass in abortion, the numbers are going to remain tragically high.



quote]Stephanie-450440 said:

Let you without sin cast the first stone. Why do we need to judge anyone for wrong decisions they have made in their life?

As a woman who works with those suffering the aftermath of abortion, I can tell you there are many reasons women feel that abortion is their only choice and there is much blame to go around. There is much misinformation given from the pro-death progressive movement that has been bought into by our society. From what I've experienced, women and men involved in abortion has not be given a "pass" and they are called out often (mostly to themselves) for the wrong decision they have made. In most cases they have PTSD which causes even more issues in their lives. Believe me, they blame themselves enough. If you wish to pile on, it seems you should worry about your own repentence.

www.silentnomoreawareness.org

www.rachelsvineyard.org

[/quote]

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The recent poll you refer to was flawed. The questions asked were worded in such a manner as to produce the result rather than obtain the person interviewed actual belief.

Feb 11th 2013 new
A growing body of evidence indicates that most abortions involve coercion,1,2 which comes in many forms, often happening at once during narrow windows of vulnerability or duress.

It may include deceptive, conflicted or profit-driven counseling; pressure from one's support network or various authorities; negligent or abusive medical practices or other abuse of power in various sectors of society even -- in some cases -- in the helping professions.

Coercion often works synergistically, in concert or escalating, typically during times of vulnerability.

Some types of coercion can escalate to violence or even homicide, the leading killer of pregnant women.5.

Most abortions involve coercion,2 which takes many forms and involves multiple factors working in synergy against women who want to have their babies, or against individuals and families seeking answers, guidance and personal or practical help.

Coercion may involve an abusive partner, family or authority figure; negligent or coercive professionals in the helping professions or elsewhere; a passive, coercive or even violent support network; deceptive, agenda- or profit-driven experts presenting false information as fact, etc. These things often happen during narrow windows of vulnerability, when women, couples or families are seeking answers, guidance or a helping hand, often from trusted authorities or other professionals.

Coercion can escalate to violence, forced abortion or even homicide the #1 killer of pregnant women.5 Employers and others have threatened or inflicted physical harm, loss of job or financial support, abandonment, or even death when women resisted an unwanted abortion. (See Forced Abortion in America.)

One mother was turned away from a homeless shelter unless she would have an abortion. In other cases, it is an abuser who seeks abortion to cover up his crimes. In still other cases, it is parents who force their daughters to abort. One mother literally pushed her daughter at gunpoint into a clinic, telling staffers to "ignore her if she gets a little teary." In another case, parents literally locked their daughter in her room for two weeks until it was time for her appointment.

Women have been subjected to unthinkable abuses, torture and even death for resisting abortion. Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women. Women and others hurt by abortion are often at a loss for words to describe the experience. Words that do come up often are "silenced," "nightmare," "humiliating," "degraded," "dismissed," "herded like cattle," "part of me died," and, ironically, "I was never given a choice.". Article from Abortion the Un-Choice web site.
Feb 11th 2013 new

As someone who believes live begins at conception I am horrified by any woman who actually hires someone to kill their baby. I think there are a few reasons we do not focus on that. My guess is that it has to do with the fact that women used to sometimes have abortions because of the social stigma related to unwed pregnancies. Yes, fear and shame are certainly not adequate reasons to kill someone but I think people may have felt complicit, that they shamed people into mortal sin. There is certainly no social stigma now about single women having children. The culture has changed.

There is definitely selfishness involved if someone does not want to give birth to a child and would actually kill the child rather than give them up for adoption. However, I think that many people feel like women have less responsibility because the culture has actually been encouraging abortion. I deeply regret having previously used artificial contraception. I truly did not understand at the time I used it that it could prevent the actual fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus - I really thought that it prevented conception. Women are told it is irresponsible to have children they can't afford, that we can always have children later, that unplanned children are a problem. Of course children are a blessing and a gift from God but I think people see that women have been told many confusing things and that they may act impulsively in stressful situations and regret it later. Being impulsive again, is not an excuse for murder. I think people give women more of a pass than the abortionist because they assume they are acting emotionally rather than acting for pay like an abortionist. However, I am absolutely appalled at someone deciding to kill their child for any reason.

Feb 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: The recent poll you refer to was flawed. The questions asked were worded in such a manner...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

The recent poll you refer to was flawed. The questions asked were worded in such a manner as to produce the result rather than obtain the person interviewed actual belief.

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I hope you are right but we just reelected the most abortion loving President in history so that doesn't speak well for the culture.

Feb 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Amber-931533 said: As someone who believes live begins at conception I am horrified by any woman who actually hires ...
(Quote) Amber-931533 said:

As someone who believes live begins at conception I am horrified by any woman who actually hires someone to kill their baby. I think there are a few reasons we do not focus on that. My guess is that it has to do with the fact that women used to sometimes have abortions because of the social stigma related to unwed pregnancies. Yes, fear and shame are certainly not adequate reasons to kill someone but I think people may have felt complicit, that they shamed people into mortal sin. There is certainly no social stigma now about single women having children. The culture has changed.

There is definitely selfishness involved if someone does not want to give birth to a child and would actually kill the child rather than give them up for adoption. However, I think that many people feel like women have less responsibility because the culture has actually been encouraging abortion. I deeply regret having previously used artificial contraception. I truly did not understand at the time I used it that it could prevent the actual fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus - I really thought that it prevented conception. Women are told it is irresponsible to have children they can't afford, that we can always have children later, that unplanned children are a problem. Of course children are a blessing and a gift from God but I think people see that women have been told many confusing things and that they may act impulsively in stressful situations and regret it later. Being impulsive again, is not an excuse for murder. I think people give women more of a pass than the abortionist because they assume they are acting emotionally rather than acting for pay like an abortionist. However, I am absolutely appalled at someone deciding to kill their child for any reason.

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Nice post. My goal of this forum isn't simply to condemn women who have abortions. It is legal and it is true that are a number of reasons that may drive a woman to have an abortion. Yet, ultimately women need to be responsible for their actions. We should stop making excuses for them and encourage any post-abortive woman to make it her life goal to prevent other women from making the same mistake. I think if more post-abortive women did that, the numbers would drop. Despite numerous advancements in technology that show how an unborn child is very much a living being even early in pregnancy, that appears to only have had a modest effect at best on reducing the abortion rate.


I certainly don't have all the answers but it just seems odd to be that someone like Casey Anthony was condemned to nth degree for allegedly killing her 2 year old, but we seem to make some many excuses for women getting abortions and put the blame on everyone and everything else except the women.


Feb 12th 2013 new

Honestly? I don't give them a pass. Every one of us needs to take personal responibility for our actions and quit using other people as an excuse for why we do bad things. Just because abortion is legal doesn't make it ok. You would have had to be living under a rock or completely mentally incapacitated to not know that when you are pregnant you are carrying a living human being and if you have an abortion you are murdering that human being. We are not living in the ages of if you get pregnant you have to put a S on you forehead! Society no longer cares! There are many places and people that are more than willing to help these woman. A good percentage of woman having abortions are doing it out of pure selfishness.

These woman are murdering their own flesh and blood. I am not going to make excuses for them. They are in God's Hands. All I can do is fight for and pray for those little innocent babies that still have a chance. Praying theheart

"Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you very much.
I beg you to spare the lives of the unborn children
that I have spiritually adopted who are in danger of abortion."

"O Father in heaven, You are the Creator of life.
Protect all expectant mothers and the babies they
carry in their wombs. We pray that those who suffer
from the evils of abortion will be open to your Infinite
mercy and love. We ask for the conversion of all who
fail to respect the gift of human life. Heavenly Father,
guide our actions to help restore in the hearts of all
people the sanctity of human life. Amen."
Pray the Rosary.
(With Ecclesiastical approval
Dec. 10, 1991)

Feb 12th 2013 new

Abortion: Why do we always blame everyone except the mother? Unread (3)

I notice there is no mention of the other responsible person the "Father". I won't judge the woman but will condemn the abortion industry and our wicked government that allows it to happen. We need to continue to pray for this intention. theheart

Feb 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Nilda-834707 said: Abortion: Why do we always blame everyone except the mother? Unread (
(Quote) Nilda-834707 said:

Abortion: Why do we always blame everyone except the mother? Unread (3)

I notice there is no mention of the other responsible person the "Father". I won't judge the woman but will condemn the abortion industry and our wicked government that allows it to happen. We need to continue to pray for this intention.

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Fathers have NO legal rights until the baby is born. Whether the father are completely for or against the abortion, legally it is irrelevant. It is the equivalent of an employee trying to influence his boss. Perhaps the employee could have some influence but the boss has complete control over the final decision. In abortion, mothers have all the power while fathers have none.

Feb 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: put the blame on everyone and everything else except the women.
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: put the blame on everyone and everything else except the women.
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Who is not putting the blame on the women? In talking about the woman from your original post, she was married. She was told two weeks ago that there were fetal anomalies with her 33 week old child. She chose to end her child's life. A child that she supposedly already named and had a baby registry setup for. Was she to blame for her own death and the death of her child? Yes. Can I feel empathy for someone facing what seems to be an impossible choice at the time? Yes. What would I do in that situation? It's easy to say "I would never do that if I were her". However, not knowing her support system (or lack thereof) and being told by the medical profession that your child will not be "perfect" it's probably easy to succomb to perceived pressure. Have you noticed the lack of Downs Syndrome's children in our everyday encounters nowadays? 90% of them are murdered before they are born. Maybe she was shallow and felt she could not love an imperfect baby. Maybe she felt she did not have the support system to care for a more seriously ill child. I don't know the details and even if I did, does that make her decision right? No. But she's dead and so is her child. It seems she paid the ultimate price.


Are there some women that have no remorse for their abortion decision? Yes. But there are also incarcerated murders that don't either. Unfortunately not everyone believes that they are a child of God and should live according to His word. Instead of condemning, my Catholic faith has taught me to help. Being on the front life of this help has shown me how depraved our humanity can be and how cruel we can be to each other. There is much evil in our world.


Is the woman on the table in the clinic ultimately to blame? Yes. But so in the father who has not helped to stop her from going into the clinic. So is the family forcing a teenager to go in and "take care of it" because they don't want to be embarrassed with a pregnant teenager. So is our society as a whole for exploiting the sexual intimacy meant for husband and wife alone. So are Catholic men and women, some on this site, who clearly state they don't believe in the Church's teaching on premarital sex. So are men and women on this site who claim they believe in the Church's teaching on premarital sex then act completely different in person. So are the women who feel that in order to "keep a man" they need to share the most intimate part of themselves before they are married. So are men who objectify women and are more concerned about their appearance than their soul. So is our society for expecting perfection of children before and after birth. So is our society for making it seem like imperfect children are a burden instead of gift from God.


It seems the true pro-life response to those choosing abortion is to respond like Jesus did to the women caught in adultery. Instead of standing there holding a stone ready to throw, reaching down to help her up and telling her to "go and sin no more" is more life affirming than condemning her for her mistake. I pray that my empathy for others is something Jesus appreciates. Reading some of these responses, I'm thankful that on Judgement Day I will stand before God and not man.

Feb 12th 2013 new

(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said: Who is not putting the blame on the women? In talking about the woman from your ...
(Quote) Stephanie-450440 said:


Who is not putting the blame on the women? In talking about the woman from your original post, she was married. She was told two weeks ago that there were fetal anomalies with her 33 week old child. She chose to end her child's life. A child that she supposedly already named and had a baby registry setup for. Was she to blame for her own death and the death of her child? Yes. Can I feel empathy for someone facing what seems to be an impossible choice at the time? Yes. What would I do in that situation? It's easy to say "I would never do that if I were her". However, not knowing her support system (or lack thereof) and being told by the medical profession that your child will not be "perfect" it's probably easy to succomb to perceived pressure. Have you noticed the lack of Downs Syndrome's children in our everyday encounters nowadays? 90% of them are murdered before they are born. Maybe she was shallow and felt she could not love an imperfect baby. Maybe she felt she did not have the support system to care for a more seriously ill child. I don't know the details and even if I did, does that make her decision right? No. But she's dead and so is her child. It seems she paid the ultimate price.


Are there some women that have no remorse for their abortion decision? Yes. But there are also incarcerated murders that don't either. Unfortunately not everyone believes that they are a child of God and should live according to His word. Instead of condemning, my Catholic faith has taught me to help. Being on the front life of this help has shown me how depraved our humanity can be and how cruel we can be to each other. There is much evil in our world.


Is the woman on the table in the clinic ultimately to blame? Yes. But so in the father who has not helped to stop her from going into the clinic. So is the family forcing a teenager to go in and "take care of it" because they don't want to be embarrassed with a pregnant teenager. So is our society as a whole for exploiting the sexual intimacy meant for husband and wife alone. So are Catholic men and women, some on this site, who clearly state they don't believe in the Church's teaching on premarital sex. So are men and women on this site who claim they believe in the Church's teaching on premarital sex then act completely different in person. So are the women who feel that in order to "keep a man" they need to share the most intimate part of themselves before they are married. So are men who objectify women and are more concerned about their appearance than their soul. So is our society for expecting perfection of children before and after birth. So is our society for making it seem like imperfect children are a burden instead of gift from God.


It seems the true pro-life response to those choosing abortion is to respond like Jesus did to the women caught in adultery. Instead of standing there holding a stone ready to throw, reaching down to help her up and telling her to "go and sin no more" is more life affirming than condemning her for her mistake. I pray that my empathy for others is something Jesus appreciates. Reading some of these responses, I'm thankful that on Judgement Day I will stand before God and not man.

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Abortion level of responsiblity #1 the doctors #2 the women.............................distant #3 the father(if he is even allowed to be involved) #4 family #5 friends #6 the culture and so on. Yes, father have a moral responsibility to support the women they impregnate but legally speaking, the father can be totally for or against the abortion, it doesn't matter.


As for my point that mothers get a pass, I have been involved in the pro-life movement for a long time. I have rarely heard anyone condemn the women for gettiing the abortion - it almost completely put upon the doctors and other mitigating factors as you stated. I simply disagree with that.

Now, I understand for PR reasons why condeming the doctors and not the women. I hope the pro-life movement exploits this particular case and gets the doctor license revoked. There are not many late term abortionists so anytime one loses his/her license, it is very positive step. Yet, as for the abortion rate overall, it remains freakishly high. What we have been doing isn't working. Rather than having compassion for post abortive women, how bout telling them to go out and try to stop other women from making the same mistake. I am sure there are some post-abortive women that do that, but I can't think of one of the top of my head, so there are not nearly enough. There should be thousands and thousands. It is there responsibility as post-abortive women. Fair or not, when men speak out against abortion, it is too easy to say it isn't there problem so fair or not, the women have to lead - especially post-abortive women.

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