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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Feb 14th 2013 new

Nancy,

I think the women we are talking about here are the ones who make/made their own decision, of their own free will, to abort their child. We are not talking about the ones forced into it by someone else.

I knew a gal a while back who was pregnant with twins, whose Mother and husband forced her to have an abortion. She is mentally off, so these people were able to control her into doing something like that. I assure you, had I known about it before they did it, I would have kidnapped her and taken her far away so those children would have had a chance at life. Her not having someone like me to speak up for her was not her fault.

I get that there are people out there who have no strength in themselves to stand up and fight for their child's life. I don't understand it, but, I do realize there are weak people like this out there.


(Quote) Nancy-926029 said: OK Patrick I can give you a reason,their are many woman who are forced by their nusbands nd boyfr...
(Quote) Nancy-926029 said:

OK Patrick I can give you a reason,their are many woman who are forced by their nusbands nd boyfriends and even get beatiings iof they don't what they are told many men make the children and then don't want to support them they would rather have the woman abort or beat them to a pulp some even kill them.There are many reasons for this not just because the woman decides this.Iv'e stood at abortioon centers and seen mothers force their children into the buildings to get this done everyone thinks different about having their child go through a pregnancy some children are even raped and they have medical issues and can't go through a pregnancy not everyone going into those buildings go to murder a child on purpose,it could be health,threrats,parents,I always ask who is the blame the man is very much part since they like to impregnate very young girls jail bate buut they don't care.

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Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Michelle-50109 said: Chelsea, It is one thing to call a murderer a murderer - that is stating a fact, it is ...
(Quote) Michelle-50109 said:

Chelsea,

It is one thing to call a murderer a murderer - that is stating a fact, it is a whole other ball of wax to say that a person should be condemned for their actions. Again, only God alone has the right to determine the state of their soul, NOT YOU. Wanting to do so makes a person hateful (by the way, that is an OPINION, not a "judgment").

You are taking the term judgment way out of context of this conversation. My point is that we needn't spend our time seeing a small picture of something and determining that person is a piece of garbage because of something they've done. Some people clearly love to make that judgment because it fluffs their own feathers to put someone else in a place below themselves. I, personally, feel no satisfaction in reading about someone like Jennifer Morbelli and talking about how evil she is and taking pride in acting like I am a better person because I've never aborted a child. I'm guilty of my own sins, and who is to say that hers are better or worse than mine, and who is to say hers are better or worse than yours? GOD can say, but, not a person like you or me.

To say Jennifer Morbelli is evil is stupid. She may have gotten struck with the stupid stick, but, that doesn't make her inherently evil or even stupid. She just made a horrible decision. A mistake. She is allowed to make mistakes that are evil and dumb and cruel, and that doesn't mean she is overall an evil person. There are many people out there who will enjoy saying she is, so that they may feel superior to her. I don't.

For the record, I didn't "judge" you by saying you were judging - you made it clear you were judging, so, once again, I stated a fact, and didn't make a judgment on anyone. I don't care to judge you, or why you are the way you are.

As far as doing "any" act without judging, again, you are taking it out of context. We are talking about judging other people, not weighing facts and making decisions about what we want to do about our own personal situations. I simply do not believe in judging people for anything beyond the actual facts. I can call Jennifer Morbelli a murderer, because she murdered her child, but, I can't, in good conscience, call her evil when I don't know her OR where her heart was when she made the horrible decision that she did. I CAN call the ACT evil, because that is a fact!


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Glad to know it.

Feb 14th 2013 new

Katherine,

Wonderful post - this is why I do not feel there is any excuse to choose abortion - there are places for women to birth unwanted children, and there are people and places for these children to live, grow up and thrive.

There was a post somewhere in this thread demanding how anyone could expect a woman to carry an unwanted child for the remainder of the pregnancy term when she doesn't want the child. To that, I say that if she didn't want the child, she shouldn't have conceived him/her. There are no guarantees in life that say all children conceived will be perfect and healthy. By having sex and allowing conception to happen, you are taking on the risk of not only a child, but, a child that could have any number of health problems or defects. Those defects do not make that child less worthy of life.

I agree that crisis pregnancy centers need more support for abused women. I hate the fact that many "pregnancy centers" will even let a woman feel that abortion is a good option.

(Quote) Katherine-868943 said: I try to stay out of these highly emotional debates but I have to speak up because something ...
(Quote) Katherine-868943 said:

I try to stay out of these highly emotional debates but I have to speak up because something is being overlooked, especially in the last comment. There are women whose husbands bypass doctors to end pregnancies, often hurting the women in the process. A well-placed beating can take care of things. Wouldn't it be easier after one or two of those to go ahead and go to a "clinic" first? It doesn't justify aborting, but that is the mindset some women are coming from. They may want the child but feel extreme pressure or even in danger for their lives. This is why crisis pregnancy centers need to be paired with abuse services; if we as the church can help both situations, that would be best. Some people stay in abusive relationships because they don't know any way out, misunderstand the church's stance and think they have to stay no matter what, or whatever.

That said, I pray for someone I know who told me she had multiple abortions because "it just wasn't the right time" in her career. My mother has a career; she had trouble conceiving but wouldn't do anything unethical, had three of us and said she was always sad she didn't get six like she wanted. Careers are not reasons to kill children. That said, it's really difficult to have a successful career even as a student and feel like a successful mother. Maybe devaluing the mother's place in a home is one of the underlying problems we have in our current society.

Individual circumstances make such a difference, the best I know to do is tell women at risk what Mother Teresa said - if you don't want your child, please don't kill it, let me have it. There is a home where this child will be loved. Action is taking some of your time to go calmly, lovingly educate people about what is right; some women are to blame, some are not. To pull an example from history, did all white people in the United States own slaves? Generalizations often hurt the discussion and create blocks to finding solutions.

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Feb 14th 2013 new

Patrick,

I don't feel I should be applauded for choosing life, but, thank you for the praise anyway. I was just fortunate that I grew up in a way that taught me the values which led me to the decision to keep my son. Perhaps my educators/elder family members should be applauded.

I hope you don't mind, I am going to tell some of my story here. I was in an abusive relationship with the father of my son, and it was becoming increasingly violent and I did fear for my life. Rather than remain in that relationship, I chose to leave it and later found out what the fruit of that relationship was going to be. I had some really scary moments with that man, and abortion would have eased a whole lot of what I went through as an unwed mother-to-be. Still, I never would have done that and I fail to see how anyone can choose their own life over that of their child. Yes, as other posters said, some people are truly forced by others or their situation, but, a majority of those abortions going on out there are choices made out of convenience, not fear. I've known gals who had multiple abortions because they didn't want to stop being sexually active, but, used abortion as birth control. It is horrifying.

I continue to support your original idea that Mothers are ultimately responsible for the abortion of their child.

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: nicely stated. Even though I believe that chlidren are best raised in a home of a m...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:




nicely stated. Even though I believe that chlidren are best raised in a home of a mom and dad, it is important that we don't malign single moms. They, like you, do the best they can in difficult circumstances. You should be applauded for choosing life.


I agree that most women who have abortions do it for selfish reasons. It is odd to me in the pro-life movement make so many excuses for women who choose abortion. Of course, there are always mitgating factors starting with a non supportive father or family, but ulitimately it is the woman's decision. The doctors are cetainly most at blame, but as I said in a previous post, they wouldn't have any business without customers.

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Feb 14th 2013 new

I've read through some of the comments, and I wanted to offer my two cents because I work at a crisis pregnancy center, trying to lead women into making the right decision to not have an abortion. I know these women. I know why they get abortions. I know what they will and will not listen to.

When abortion is on the table, there are two lives at risk: the physical life of the baby, and the eternal life of the mother. The mother thinks an abortion will solve her problems, even though she's not aware of her true problems. The woman considering an abortion is arguably the most spiritually poor person on earth. Her reasons for getting an abortion are not only not irrelevant, but the key to helping her make the right decision. We must listen to her concerns, fears, and distorted perceptions. We must not judge her emotions or thoughts, but understand them and offer empathy (not sympathy) for the difficulties she's facing, because she will not respond to judgment or condemnation. Then, we must show her the way away from sin. We must offer love, support, education, an after plan, and long-term solutions. This is the work of the Church and the commandment of Christ: to love. And if she chooses abortion, we are still commanded to love her. We do not need to tell her what a horrible thing she's done, because she already knows. Most women fall more deeply into their states of spiritual poverty after abortion, and many of them hate themselves.

We tend to blame others for abortion because abortion is a symptom of a society with a highly distorted view of sexuality. The truth is that sex = unitive/procreative, but society thinks sex = pleasure. To fix this, we must first live the truth, which produces a joy-filled life, which is very attractive. People want true joy. The most effective solution to the abortion problem for the average person is to live the gospel joyfully. The rest will follow.

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said: I've read through some of the comments, and I wanted to offer my two cents because I work at...
(Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said:

I've read through some of the comments, and I wanted to offer my two cents because I work at a crisis pregnancy center, trying to lead women into making the right decision to not have an abortion. I know these women. I know why they get abortions. I know what they will and will not listen to.

When abortion is on the table, there are two lives at risk: the physical life of the baby, and the eternal life of the mother. The mother thinks an abortion will solve her problems, even though she's not aware of her true problems. The woman considering an abortion is arguably the most spiritually poor person on earth. Her reasons for getting an abortion are not only not irrelevant, but the key to helping her make the right decision. We must listen to her concerns, fears, and distorted perceptions. We must not judge her emotions or thoughts, but understand them and offer empathy (not sympathy) for the difficulties she's facing, because she will not respond to judgment or condemnation. Then, we must show her the way away from sin. We must offer love, support, education, an after plan, and long-term solutions. This is the work of the Church and the commandment of Christ: to love. And if she chooses abortion, we are still commanded to love her. We do not need to tell her what a horrible thing she's done, because she already knows. Most women fall more deeply into their states of spiritual poverty after abortion, and many of them hate themselves.

We tend to blame others for abortion because abortion is a symptom of a society with a highly distorted view of sexuality. The truth is that sex = unitive/procreative, but society thinks sex = pleasure. To fix this, we must first live the truth, which produces a joy-filled life, which is very attractive. People want true joy. The most effective solution to the abortion problem for the average person is to live the gospel joyfully. The rest will follow.

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I agree with most of what you wrote with the exception "We do not need to tell her what a horrible thing she's done, because she already knows." Is that really the case? Then why are there over 1 million abortions a year in America and why are there so many women who get multiple abortions. I'm sure that is true in some cases but I don't necessarily think that is necessarily a majority of time. You probably deal with women who actually have a conscience and thinking of abortion is actually a moral dilemna. I think for too many it is the equivalent of going to the dentist... a mere inconvience to take care of a much larger "problem."

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick I certainly don't have all the answers but it just seems odd to be that someone like Casey Anthony w...
(Quote) Patrick


I certainly don't have all the answers but it just seems odd to be that someone like Casey Anthony was condemned to nth degree for allegedly killing her 2 year old, but we seem to make some many excuses for women getting abortions and put the blame on everyone and everything else except the women.

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I heard a priest, who had just started working w/ women who had abortions as wonderful women. A year later, in a sermon about them, he said "How could they have done that?

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743 It's scriptural that we will be judged by the measure with which we mete judgment and that we mu...
(Quote) Chelsea-743


It's scriptural that we will be judged by the measure with which we mete judgment and that we must judge just judgment, but obviously you and I have no authority to condemn anyone. In order to help anyone, even your poor college mate, you first have to judge her and the situation...so it's silly to say not to judge.

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Perhaps "judge" should be replaced w/ "discern" or "determine" as we must all do this everyday as we make decisions about what to do, whether it's right or wrong, and even in the search for a spouse who will work w/ us in getting to Heaven.

If a person believes that those involved in abortions are "wrong", that's not a Judgment where they will send Eternity.

Feb 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: (Quote) Elizabeth-626798 said:I agree with most of what you wrote with the ...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

[quote]Elizabeth-626798 said:
I agree with most of what you wrote with the exception "We do not need to tell her what a horrible thing she's done, because she already knows." Is that really the case? Then why are there over 1 million abortions a year in America and why are there so many women who get multiple abortions. I'm sure that is true in some cases but I don't necessarily think that is necessarily a majority of time. You probably deal with women who actually have a conscience and thinking of abortion is actually a moral dilemna. I think for too many it is the equivalent of going to the dentist... a mere inconvience to take care of a much larger "problem."

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Patrick, our main service is free pregnancy testing, and many of our women think we do abortions as well, so we do deal with the type of woman you're describing. I've encountered women who've had multiple abortions, as if it were birth control. It's very sad. Now, because our pregnancy tests are free, we are serving a low-income demographic, so that could be a valid difference between your experiences and mine. Also, I realize that I deal with many more pre-abortion women than post-abortion women. I don't know of any hard numbers describing how many women are aware that they are aborting a baby. Certainly, if a woman is completely ignorant that she has participated in killing her baby, then it would be good for her to receive information so she can then face her sin. Yet, when dealing with this population, it's necessary to have a merciful perspective. A woman who knows she is aborting a baby does so because, and I quote, "I have no choice." Such a woman questionably commits mortal sin because the degree of her "full consent" is in question. This is not unlike the compulsiveness of people who "cannot not masturbate" or "cannot not watch porn" or "cannot stop eating." They act out of a distorted compulsion and deficiency in understanding and in self-control. Many women who abort do so out of fear. There is psychological imbalance going on here, and an improperly formed conscience. In the case of the woman who doesn't have "full knowledge," it's not mortal sin. Regardless, both women need healing, love, forgiveness, and a practical way to deal with their sin.

I'm not sure why the issue of blame is important unless the goal is to try and pin-point how to better prevent abortions in general. You asked why we have over one million abortions in America. When a woman accepts the reality that she is carrying a baby, it doesn't necessarily change her mind. The deciding factor in whether a woman aborts is the degree to which she believes that her unborn baby has a right to live at her inconvenience. These are some common reasons that women give when they state they are going to abort: I already have too many children; the father of the baby is not supportive or is abusive; I'm too young; I'm too poor; I'm completely overwhelmed with life; I'm very sick and have really hard pregnancies; it's not a good time for me to have a baby. So, it seems that women either have a practical problem, or they are not using sex the right way. The former can be fixed with Church community support and resources, and the latter can be addressed with correct Catholic teaching on sexuality. But those things do not guarantee an abortion-free world, regardless of whether abortion is legal or not. The real key is do these things with love, because that is what people respond to. Our attitude has to be, "How can I love this woman who has committed this sin?" Is it loving to focus on blaming her? Does that give effective help?

This article from the National Catholic Register is interesting because it puts the issue in perspective: www.ncregister.com

Feb 15th 2013 new

I think Ray's last paragraph says it all, esp the last sentence.

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