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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Marysia-253828 said: Anybody else concerned about the fact that there are so many Catholic Churches out there withou...
(Quote) Marysia-253828 said:

Anybody else concerned about the fact that there are so many Catholic Churches out there without kneelers, where the Tabernacle is placed anywere beside the center of the altar and genuflection is becoming a thing of the past?

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Welcome to CM Marysia!


I am concerned and bothered by that too, but the tide is turning and things are beginning to improve.


If this occurs at your parish, try another. St Mark's (in westpark just south of Lakewood and a couple blocks west of Warren) is nice. I love Our Lady of Mt. Carmel at W. 70th and Detroit. Very reverent mass and congregation.


This sort of thing drove me crazy for many years. now I've turned a corner. When I see irreverence, especially when people are receiving the Eucharist, I try to focus on the immense love and humility Jesus has. He willingly undergoes shoody treatment, indifference, and even hostility in order to make himself available to all of us. So I thank him and make acts of love and also acts of reparation for all the times I received indifferently or unworthily as well as for those who may be doing the same now. Doing this turned my bitterness and frustration into love, awe, and joy. How sweet and loving is our God! When we see things like this, we should console and love him in our hearts. This does everyone immense good.


theheart



Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Joseph-903200 said: Its a reflection of our modern life where the idea of anything being sacred is eroding. I...
(Quote) Joseph-903200 said:

Its a reflection of our modern life where the idea of anything being sacred is eroding.

If churches would really cultivate reverence and holiness people would be drawn to church. People are craving for the transcendant even if they don't know it.

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This is nothing new. Throughout its long history, the Church has often cycled through times like this. You need only read old collections of sermons to see that this irreverence and indifference have always existed. St. Jean-marie Vianney railed against this sort of thing in the very early 19th century. Three centuries befor ehim, St. Philip Neri preached against this as well. A generation before Neri, Savonarola raged against the same irreverence and indifference. And so on back into the patristic era. People have weak faith. They struggle to see. Many were never properly catechized.


What do we do about it? We pray, we offer acts of reparation and love to our Lord when we see this. We set a good example. We instruct our children. We do not nag. We do not rag on our poor priests. We do not scold.


The good thing is that they are coming to church. There is hope for them. Many of us, myself included, went through the motions for years until we finally experienced an interior conversion which led to a change in our behavior. We must take care to remember that none of us is much better than anyone else. We must focus on interior devotion while performing the necessary and right exterior things. But we must never focus on external behavior to the exclusion of the interior. we don't want to genuflect and kneel reverently while planning a sharp business deal or hoping to have a carnal affair. Christ admonished us severely against doing that. Right? St. Augstine also warned against this. Finally, the person who shows little or no external signs may have an interior disposition of deep love and reverence which God alone sees and loves. We can't see into anyone's heart or soul - so let's not rush to conclusions about our fellows. That isn't our job anyway.

theheart

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: This was all done by Clergy who want to fundamentally transform everything.
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

This was all done by Clergy who want to fundamentally transform everything.

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Maybe so. Novelty is, always has been, and always will be the vice of the clergy, religious, and of clergy/religious wannabes like directors of liturgy, music directors, lay ministers, DRE's, and so on. A friend once quipped that god fretted because the Catholic Church in the west was not experiencing enough persecution - so he sent us liturgists. wink


A wonderful pastor of mine, back in the very early 90's when the nonsense was at its high water mark, told me to have faith and trust God. His constant line was "whoever marries the 'idea of the moment' soon finds himself widowed. He also said let the dissident clergy have their way because they are getting older, fatter, greyer, and fewer each year. They're running out of steam. THE TIDE IS TURNING. Why do you think JPII's most consistent messages were messages of hope. His first words from the balcony as Pontiff were the words Christ most often spoke in the gospels: "be not afraid!" Like him or hate him, JPII saw us safely through that post-Vatican II era and gave us the tools to thwart this sort of nonsense. IMO, he's a great saint and it pains me to see him dissed by so many "pious" Catholics. (What's with that anyway?) See how the tide is slowly turning. Young priests and new bishops do not put up with this. A new orthodoxy is bubbling to the surface. You and I may be frustrated that it isn't happening on our timetables, but it is happening on God's timetable. This is good. We must only be faithful and full of hope. God is in charge. Not us.


Finally, we must stop dissing our clergy. We must stop mistrusting and maligning our hierarchy. That is nothing short of awful. I'm ashamed to admit that I did this for 20+ years. That terrible dispoition only keeps us unhappy with the Church and reluctant to participate fully in worship because we're too busy counting the outrages occurring all around us. Whose work do you suppose that is? The Holy Spirit's? Our Guardian Angel's? Heck NO!!! I doubt it comes from a holy source because it keeps us unhappy, mistrustful, and resentful. It is an obstacle to personal holiness and NOT a sign of holiness. This is hardly the stuff any good Christian should be made of. Right? We must resist this mindset at all costs and embrace the present realities, always looking for the good and for ways to be of greater service to God and our fellows.

theheart




Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: A friend once quipped that god fretted because the Catholic Church in the west was not ...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

A friend once quipped that god fretted because the Catholic Church in the west was not experiencing enough persecution - so he sent us liturgists.




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laughing laughing laughing

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Marysia-253828 said: Anybody else concerned about the fact that there are so many Catholic Churches out there withou...
(Quote) Marysia-253828 said:

Anybody else concerned about the fact that there are so many Catholic Churches out there without kneelers, where the Tabernacle is placed anywere beside the center of the altar and genuflection is becoming a thing of the past?

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Thanks for posting this...however I am very blessed because I attend a parish that is taken care of by an order of priests that are bringing back the sacred in every way! They are The Canons Regular of St. John Cantius Church in Chicago. Our little church, up north here was in need of a new priest because our dear Pastor was semi retiring, Cardinal George almost closed our church, but because we are so active and conservative, he temporarily sent these wonderful men our way. We have two regular priests and numerous brothers that come and go. And they wear the full "dress" and soooo many wonderful sacred practices pre vatican II. We have a communion rail that we use and only if someone cannot kneel do they get communion standing. Not to say that the priest won't give if you're in the standing line. It is on the tongue and kneeling is how it is described in our bulletin. We have the Latin Mass and English as well. There's so much more too much to write here. Praise God! Praying theheart

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: (Quote) David-364112 said: A friend once quipped that god fretted...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Quote:
David-364112 said:

A friend once quipped that god fretted because the Catholic Church in the west was not experiencing enough persecution - so he sent us liturgists.






laughing laughing laughing

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Ain't it the truth?? To that list can be added directors of liturgy, lay ministers, pastoral ministers, DRE's and music directors. Heretics and iconoclasts all!

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Jane-933948 said: Thanks for posting this...however I am very blessed because I attend a parish that is taken care o...
(Quote) Jane-933948 said:

Thanks for posting this...however I am very blessed because I attend a parish that is taken care of by an order of priests that are bringing back the sacred in every way! They are The Canons Regular of St. John Cantius Church in Chicago. Our little church, up north here was in need of a new priest because our dear Pastor was semi retiring, Cardinal George almost closed our church, but because we are so active and conservative, he temporarily sent these wonderful men our way. We have two regular priests and numerous brothers that come and go. And they wear the full "dress" and soooo many wonderful sacred practices pre vatican II. We have a communion rail that we use and only if someone cannot kneel do they get communion standing. Not to say that the priest won't give if you're in the standing line. It is on the tongue and kneeling is how it is described in our bulletin. We have the Latin Mass and English as well. There's so much more too much to write here. Praise God!

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Lucky! I lived in Chicago for 9+ years and often attended Mass at St John Cantius off North Avenue. You're in real good hands with them.

Feb 14th 2013 new

I find it interesting that that Bishop Dolan did this. I would like to offer that Bishop Morlino in Madison, Wi, runs a very reverent diocese, and my five years there yielded a tremendous increase in my own reverence and focus during Mass. That Bishop Dolan has earned the respect of the priests in this diocese speaks, in my mind, to the orthodoxy of his opinions, his respect for the traditions of the Church, and his love of God. He was likely trying to show the congregation that humour is does not need to be absent from our relationship with God, and thereby build a connection through which they would accept the "harder" principles.

Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Valerie-889381 said: I find it interesting that that Bishop Dolan did this. I would like to offer that Bishop Morlin...
(Quote) Valerie-889381 said:

I find it interesting that that Bishop Dolan did this. I would like to offer that Bishop Morlino in Madison, Wi, runs a very reverent diocese, and my five years there yielded a tremendous increase in my own reverence and focus during Mass. That Bishop Dolan has earned the respect of the priests in this diocese speaks, in my mind, to the orthodoxy of his opinions, his respect for the traditions of the Church, and his love of God. He was likely trying to show the congregation that humour is does not need to be absent from our relationship with God, and thereby build a connection through which they would accept the "harder" principles.

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The direction the Church has gone in over the last 50 years is something very different to the previous 1950 years in respect of instilling a sense of reverence. I did not post that article to attack Cardinal Dolan personally as he may regret what he did although it was wrong (I could write in my opinion but will not for obvious reasons). Regarding reverence and drawing the line of what to do/not do I am not surprised by much these days. If the new Pope came out onto the balcony in St Peter's Square for the first time wearing a red wig and red nose there would be some who would rejoice and say something like "he was becoming more accessible to ordinary people".

Archbishop Dolan may be poorly trained, may have had great intentions when he wore a piece of cheese on his head during Holy Mass and he may be a great man of God. However, even St Paul rebuked St Peter when it was appropriate. If I met Cardinal Dolan and he discussed wearing a piece of cheese on his head during Holy Mass I would consider it appropriate to tell him what he did was wrong and a mistake.




Feb 14th 2013 new

I am truly concerned as well. Both the Catholic churches nearest to where I live (one in Hudson and the other in River Falls) have the tabernacle in another room, their sanctuary is modern, there are barely any types of sacred art or statues. Also, my family has moved around often due to my fathers job with 3M and all of the places we lived except for one all had modern type churches with the tabernacle either absent from behind the alter or off to the side (right or left). What I don't understand is that many of the churhces in and around the area have either neglected the original church to built a new modern type church when the money they used for building the modern type church could of gone into maintaining the orignal church. I find such beauty in real churches and I really don't care for modern type looking churches. I always make sure I genuflect and find it real disapointing when I am visiting family and the church we go to does not have a tabernacle anywhere behind the alter. I am also saddened that people think that once church is done with it is time for socializing and have no regard for those who want to pray after mass.

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