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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Jim-13836 said: I am surprised how much adoration a lot of America gives this guy. He is such a genius ...
(Quote) Jim-13836 said:


I am surprised how much adoration a lot of America gives this guy. He is such a genius that his school records have been locked down and needs his teleprompter to go to the bathroom. Calling him an empty suit doesn't even come close.

--hide--

Yes, empty chair...

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) John-336509 said: What proof, due process, or transperency was there when US dive bombers jumped the Japanese carriers off ...
(Quote) John-336509 said: What proof, due process, or transperency was there when US dive bombers jumped the Japanese carriers off Midway? While I agree that Obama is sorely lacking in many qualities, that doesn't justify evaluating military combat operations using the criteria for a police investigstion.
--hide--

I need to google this when I am on a faster computer, but was this before or after Christmas?

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Marianne-100218 said: Chelsea: I am advocating "the end justifies the means." And...
(Quote) Marianne-100218 said:



Chelsea: I am advocating "the end justifies the means." And I feel that we are only doing reciprocal attacks because we need
to defend ourselves since September 11. War has seen the return of barbarianism since Muslims decided to attack America,
whether it was on our homeland or the Marine Base in Beirut or our ships at sea. I see no reason to impose strict guidelines
in certain instances. Exceptions should be made.

Dead soldiers are dead, not proud. It is a whole lot better to break some rules and be alive than to adhere to
rules and loose ones life. We are dealing with twenty-first century war with the return of barbaric Muslims.

Sorry to disappoint.

--hide--


Perhaps we should review what the Catechism states? (emphasis in bold is added by me)

www.usccb.org


ARTICLE 4
THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS

1749 Freedom makes man a moral subject. When he acts deliberately, man is, so to speak, the father of his acts. Human acts, that is, acts that are freely chosen in consequence of a judgment of conscience, can be morally evaluated. They are either good or evil. (1732)

I. The Sources of Morality

1750 The morality of human acts depends on:

—the object chosen;

—the end in view or the intention;

—the circumstances of the action.

The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the “sources,” or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.

1751 The object chosen is a good toward which the will deliberately directs itself. It is the matter of a human act. The object chosen morally specifies the act of the will, insofar as reason recognizes and judges it to be or not to be in conformity with the true good. Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience. (1794)

1752 In contrast to the object, the intention resides in the acting subject. Because it lies at the voluntary source of an action and determines it by its end, intention is an element essential to the moral evaluation of an action. The end is the first goal of the intention and indicates the purpose pursued in the action. The intention is a movement of the will toward the end: it is concerned with the goal of the activity. It aims at the good anticipated from the action undertaken. Intention is not limited to directing individual actions, but can guide several actions toward one and the same purpose; it can orient one’s whole life toward its ultimate end. For example, a service done with the end of helping one’s neighbor can at the same time be inspired by the love of God as the ultimate end of all our actions. One and the same action can also be inspired by several intentions, such as performing a service in order to obtain a favor or to boast about it. (2520,1731)

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39 (2479,596)

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil. (1735)

II. Good Acts and Evil Acts

1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting “in order to be seen by men”).

The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety. There are some concrete acts—such as fornication—that it is always wrong to choose, because choosing them entails a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil.

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it. (1789)

IN BRIEF

1757 The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the three “sources” of the morality of human acts.

1758 The object chosen morally specifies the act of willing accordingly as reason recognizes and judges it good or evil.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

1760 A morally good act requires the goodness of its object, of its end, and of its circumstances together.

1761 There are concrete acts that it is always wrong to choose, because their choice entails a disorder of the will, i.e., a moral evil. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

_______________

I think it's pretty clear here that we're not allowed to use "the end justifies the means" philosophy of morality. However, if you want something more authoritative, Pope Bl. John Paul II wrote an encyclical called Veritatis Splendor in which he condemns proportionalism/consequentialism as an ethical theory by which to judge the morality of human acts.

It's interesting to note that the philosophy of morality which you are advocating is the very same which resulted in the crucifixion of Our Lord:

"But some of them went to the Pharisees, and told them the things that Jesus had done. The chief priests therefore, and the Pharisees, gathered a council, and said: What do we, for this man doth many miracles? If we let him alone so, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and take away our place and nation. But one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing. Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." John 11:46-50


02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: charles---i see your point--but what kind of reality is it to have your hands tied when...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:




charles---i see your point--but what kind of reality is it to have your hands tied when it is 'obvious' that some american who joined al qaeda is planning and/or committing terrorist acts.? You really want to go into hostile territory in pakistan,syria,iran....capture--put on a lengthy trial at home any suspect over there who happens to be an american citizen??---If thats the policy then Al qaeda is gonna recruit lottsa american citizens because they are really untouchable. Or better yet---get these 'american citizens ' to act as human shields. thinking it through it just isnt practical.

--hide--


Better yet, why not we declare war against those sovereigns who harbor the ones who actually attack us?...instead of committing acts of terror upon people within their borders.

02/15/2013 new
(Quote) Tom-112790 said: charles---i see your point--but what kind of reality is it to have your hands tied when it is 'ob...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:




charles---i see your point--but what kind of reality is it to have your hands tied when it is 'obvious' that some american who joined al qaeda is planning and/or committing terrorist acts.? You really want to go into hostile territory in pakistan,syria,iran....capture--put on a lengthy trial at home any suspect over there who happens to be an american citizen??---If thats the policy then Al qaeda is gonna recruit lottsa american citizens because they are really untouchable. Or better yet---get these 'american citizens ' to act as human shields. thinking it through it just isnt practical.

--hide--


Even if that were the case (and I don't believe it is), you're putting utilitarian reasoning above moral law. We may not commit evil so that good may come of it.
02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Perhaps we should review what the Catechism states? (emphasis in bold is added by me)
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Perhaps we should review what the Catechism states? (emphasis in bold is added by me)

www.usccb.org


ARTICLE 4
THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS

1749 Freedom makes man a moral subject. When he acts deliberately, man is, so to speak, the father of his acts. Human acts, that is, acts that are freely chosen in consequence of a judgment of conscience, can be morally evaluated. They are either good or evil. (1732)

I. The Sources of Morality

1750 The morality of human acts depends on:

—the object chosen;

—the end in view or the intention;

—the circumstances of the action.

The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the “sources,” or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.

1751 The object chosen is a good toward which the will deliberately directs itself. It is the matter of a human act. The object chosen morally specifies the act of the will, insofar as reason recognizes and judges it to be or not to be in conformity with the true good. Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience. (1794)

1752 In contrast to the object, the intention resides in the acting subject. Because it lies at the voluntary source of an action and determines it by its end, intention is an element essential to the moral evaluation of an action. The end is the first goal of the intention and indicates the purpose pursued in the action. The intention is a movement of the will toward the end: it is concerned with the goal of the activity. It aims at the good anticipated from the action undertaken. Intention is not limited to directing individual actions, but can guide several actions toward one and the same purpose; it can orient one’s whole life toward its ultimate end. For example, a service done with the end of helping one’s neighbor can at the same time be inspired by the love of God as the ultimate end of all our actions. One and the same action can also be inspired by several intentions, such as performing a service in order to obtain a favor or to boast about it. (2520,1731)

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39 (2479,596)

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil. (1735)

II. Good Acts and Evil Acts

1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting “in order to be seen by men”).

The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety. There are some concrete acts—such as fornication—that it is always wrong to choose, because choosing them entails a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil.

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it. (1789)

IN BRIEF

1757 The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the three “sources” of the morality of human acts.

1758 The object chosen morally specifies the act of willing accordingly as reason recognizes and judges it good or evil.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

1760 A morally good act requires the goodness of its object, of its end, and of its circumstances together.

1761 There are concrete acts that it is always wrong to choose, because their choice entails a disorder of the will, i.e., a moral evil. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

_______________

I think it's pretty clear here that we're not allowed to use "the end justifies the means" philosophy of morality. However, if you want something more authoritative, Pope Bl. John Paul II wrote an encyclical called Veritatis Splendor in which he condemns proportionalism/consequentialism as an ethical theory by which to judge the morality of human acts.

It's interesting to note that the philosophy of morality which you are advocating is the very same which resulted in the crucifixion of Our Lord:

"But some of them went to the Pharisees, and told them the things that Jesus had done. The chief priests therefore, and the Pharisees, gathered a council, and said: What do we, for this man doth many miracles? If we let him alone so, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and take away our place and nation. But one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing. Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." John 11:46-50


--hide--


Chelsea: I think you made a very good point for me. I am against Church teachings then, because I feel that if we
know people have harmed and will continue to harm us, we should take action, especially if they are involved in a
jihadist group.

Thank you for showing me where the information was located in the catechism. I don't remember that information
being in the Cathechism when I was studying.

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Marianne-100218 said: Chelsea: I think you made a very good point for me. I am against Church teachings then...
(Quote) Marianne-100218 said:



Chelsea: I think you made a very good point for me. I am against Church teachings then, because I feel that if we
know people have harmed and will continue to harm us, we should take action, especially if they are involved in a
jihadist group.

Thank you for showing me where the information was located in the catechism. I don't remember that information
being in the Cathechism when I was studying.

--hide--


Marianne,

I hope you don't feel like I was trying to beat you over the head with the doctrine or something of the like, because that is not the point.

There has to be some moral solution for the situation that we're in, but it's not killing people under the authority of other sovereigns without declaring a war upon that sovereign. Our government has no rights over those living in other states/countries without formal extradition orders...and hardly the right to impose the death penalty upon the subjects, citizens or residents in the care of a foreign sovereign.

I think this whole "war on terror" thing has gotten completely out of hand, like the 1980's "war on drugs." There is no end in sight because there is no definite enemy. It would be better to declare war on those who harbor our enemies than to commit acts of terror (killing/murdering with drone weaponry) upon the persons living in another country.

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Marianne, I hope you don't feel like I was trying to beat you over the head...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Marianne,

I hope you don't feel like I was trying to beat you over the head with the doctrine or something of the like, because that is not the point.

There has to be some moral solution for the situation that we're in, but it's not killing people under the authority of other sovereigns without declaring a war upon that sovereign. Our government has no rights over those living in other states/countries without formal extradition orders...and hardly the right to impose the death penalty upon the subjects, citizens or residents in the care of a foreign sovereign.

I think this whole "war on terror" thing has gotten completely out of hand, like the 1980's "war on drugs." There is no end in sight because there is no definite enemy. It would be better to declare war on those who harbor our enemies than to commit acts of terror (killing/murdering with drone weaponry) upon the persons living in another country.

--hide--


No, Chelsea, I do not think you were trying to beat me over the head. But I pretty much disagree that we should declare
war on countries harboring our enemies that are terrorists.

These terrorists use our morals to win victories because they are counting on us remaining within the confines of our
morals or outdated policies of war.

Being polite and gentlemanly is no longer the case in today's world as far as I am concerned with regard to terrorists.

But thank you for your input.

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Marianne, I hope you don't feel like I was trying to beat you over the head...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Marianne,

I hope you don't feel like I was trying to beat you over the head with the doctrine or something of the like, because that is not the point.

There has to be some moral solution for the situation that we're in, but it's not killing people under the authority of other sovereigns without declaring a war upon that sovereign. Our government has no rights over those living in other states/countries without formal extradition orders...and hardly the right to impose the death penalty upon the subjects, citizens or residents in the care of a foreign sovereign.

I think this whole "war on terror" thing has gotten completely out of hand, like the 1980's "war on drugs." There is no end in sight because there is no definite enemy. It would be better to declare war on those who harbor our enemies than to commit acts of terror (killing/murdering with drone weaponry) upon the persons living in another country.

--hide--
Hi Chelsea, how would you define "harbor " ? If that decision oozes out of the current W H toddlers' homogeneous "idea" pool, without Congressional or Court involvement, we have a problem.

02/15/2013 new

(Quote) Bernie-645443 said: Hi Chelsea, how would you define "harbor " ? If that decision oozes out of the current...
(Quote) Bernie-645443 said:

Hi Chelsea, how would you define "harbor " ? If that decision oozes out of the current W H toddlers' homogeneous "idea" pool, without Congressional or Court involvement, we have a problem.

--hide--


I define harbor as to give aid and comfort (comfort not in a warm and fuzzy sentimental sense, but rather in the sense that one is giving another a chance to refresh and strengthen in fortitude).

I have to confess, I don't understand your subsequent comment. I'm not very up on political jargon as I don't watch television at all...and don't read much media sources...so I don't get the references: "W H toddlers' homogeneous 'idea' pool"? What is this? :) Thanks in advance.

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