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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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I was reading Pius XI's encyclical on Christian Education which is full of sound Catholic doctrine on how to properly educate our young so that they might attain heaven and was wondering what people thought of the following paragraph.

"68. False also and harmful to Christian education is the so-called method of "coeducation." This too, by many of its supporters, is founded upon naturalism and the denial of original sin; but by all, upon a deplorable confusion of ideas that mistakes a leveling promiscuity and equality, for the legitimate association of the sexes. The Creator has ordained and disposed perfect union of the sexes only in matrimony, and, with varying degrees of contact, in the family and in society. Besides there is not in nature itself, which fashions the two quite different in organism, in temperament, in abilities, anything to suggest that there can be or ought to be promiscuity, and much less equality, in the training of the two sexes. These, in keeping with the wonderful designs of the Creator, are destined to complement each other in the family and in society, precisely because of their differences, which therefore ought to be maintained and encouraged during their years of formation, with the necessary distinction and corresponding separation, according to age and circumstances. These principles, with due regard to time and place, must, in accordance with Christian prudence, be applied to all schools, particularly in the most delicate and decisive period of formation, that, namely, of adolescence; and in gymnastic exercises and deportment, special care must be had of Christian modesty in young women and girls, which is so gravely impaired by any kind of exhibition in public."

www.vatican.va

Feb 14th 2013 new

Wow, are you fighting yet another desperate rearguard action against situations which changed generations ago?


Things were different 80 years ago in Italy. The sexes were previously segregated and not accustomed to being in mixed settings. Now, nearly a century later, we're so used to mixed-gender settings and events that the don't hold the same significance they did in the 1920's or 30's in a Latin countries like Italy and Spain with their fascist machismo. Mixed-gender settings are no longer erotically-charged novelties, but commonplace and ordinary.


Trust me, you won't be able to put this genie back into the bottle. And who would want to? Best to adapt to the situation and instruct our young in the ways of self control. and dignified treatment of each other.


Even when the sexes were rigidly segregated, boys and girls still found plenty of ways to get it on. In the 1990's I used to go to an elderly priest for spiritual direction. He was ordained in Italy in 1927. Shortly after WWII his order sent him and 3 companions to the USA to establish two parishes for Italian immigrants. On more than one occasion I heard him said that he heard at least as many if not more confessions of sexual sins from teens and young adults in Italy back then as he did at the peak of the "sexual revolution in 1960's and 70's America, or even in present times (the early 1990's). This great priest died a few years shy of his 100th birthday and after more than 75 years as a priest. The Cure of Ars and St Philip Neri and Savonarola all raged against sexual promiscuity and laxness among the youth. This was in the 1400's, 1500's and early 1800's.


So, what does all this demonstrate? It shows that nothing changes. Things will always be as they always have been. We must work on changing the inside rather than the outside. Rather than segregating the sexes or forcing girls and women to wear ridiculous long dresses like the Amish or the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, we must instead work on teaching our kids to be holy and to love holiness. This is the only way to address the problem. So you might want to stop savoring pipedreams about a return to a romanticized past which was never the way it's imagined to be.



Feb 14th 2013 new

(Quote) John-324285 said: I was reading Pius XI's encyclical on Christian Education which is full of sound Catholic doct...
(Quote) John-324285 said:

I was reading Pius XI's encyclical on Christian Education which is full of sound Catholic doctrine on how to properly educate our young so that they might attain heaven and was wondering what people thought of the following paragraph.

"68. False also and harmful to Christian education is the so-called method of "coeducation." This too, by many of its supporters, is founded upon naturalism and the denial of original sin; but by all, upon a deplorable confusion of ideas that mistakes a leveling promiscuity and equality, for the legitimate association of the sexes. The Creator has ordained and disposed perfect union of the sexes only in matrimony, and, with varying degrees of contact, in the family and in society. Besides there is not in nature itself, which fashions the two quite different in organism, in temperament, in abilities, anything to suggest that there can be or ought to be promiscuity, and much less equality, in the training of the two sexes. These, in keeping with the wonderful designs of the Creator, are destined to complement each other in the family and in society, precisely because of their differences, which therefore ought to be maintained and encouraged during their years of formation, with the necessary distinction and corresponding separation, according to age and circumstances. These principles, with due regard to time and place, must, in accordance with Christian prudence, be applied to all schools, particularly in the most delicate and decisive period of formation, that, namely, of adolescence; and in gymnastic exercises and deportment, special care must be had of Christian modesty in young women and girls, which is so gravely impaired by any kind of exhibition in public."

www.vatican.va

--hide--

We should take this a step further to its logical conclusion.

We need to build a separate, screened section in every church where the women would go for services. The Church should appoint deaconesses to distribute communion to them because we don't want our priests to be led into sin seeing them. Oh, yes all women should be required to wear loose blouses that cover her completely from the chin down anytime they are anywhere on church grounds. Can't allow any man especially the priest to catch of glimpse of cleavage. They should also be required to cover their heads because their hair is a womean's crowning glory and might lead men into sin if they see it, especially if they see the hair in Church.

Any pastor who, because he is trying to reach the young, holds dances for teens and unmarried young or older adults should be immediately defrocked and reported to the police for fostering , gasp - gasp, familiarity between the sexes. After all any familiarity between the sexes inevitably leads to sex.

Now, as I remove my tongue which has been firmly planted in my cheek and return it to its proper place, I have a simple question for you.

When I challenged you in another thread to name even one Pope who ever taught heresy, you gleefully trotted out Pope Honorius. Completely disregarding the fact that although he himself may have believed is something heretical he never promulgated it. Nevertheless, you insisted he taught it heresy.

Now you trot out Pius XI on the subject of education in which he appears to condemn coeducation. You of course, ignored the nuances contained in the very words you quoted. Widespread use of coeducation at all levels in Catholic, non-catholic and secular schools has conclusively demonstrated since even before his time and to the present that in fact it does not lead to increased sexual activity among the young. Proving his concern was, to put it mildly, wrong.

According to your stated position on Honorius, Pius XI taught heresy or at least an erroneous bit of nonsense. Its okay for us to accept Pius XI's position as good Church teaching apparently because you like it, but Honorius's heresy was Church teaching. Yet you cannot supply any proof that either made there mistaken positions an official teaching of the Church.

Feb 17th 2013 new

My son will start high school in 2.5 years, so I've been doing some preliminary research on the options in my diocese. We have 4 high schools - 2 co-ed, 1 all-boys and 1 all-girls. I've also looked at schools in the Bay Area, as I might be moving out there, and they too have some all-boys/all-girls high schools, but the majority are co-ed. I don't really have a preference for one over the other, but I wonder, what are the pros and cons of co-ed and all-boys high schools? So far my son said that all-boys school would have "less drama" related to girls, but I don't know how he will feel in 2 years.

Feb 18th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Wow, are you fighting yet another desperate rearguard action against situations which changed gen...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Wow, are you fighting yet another desperate rearguard action against situations which changed generations ago?


Things were different 80 years ago in Italy. The sexes were previously segregated and not accustomed to being in mixed settings. Now, nearly a century later, we're so used to mixed-gender settings and events that the don't hold the same significance they did in the 1920's or 30's in a Latin countries like Italy and Spain with their fascist machismo. Mixed-gender settings are no longer erotically-charged novelties, but commonplace and ordinary.


Trust me, you won't be able to put this genie back into the bottle. And who would want to? Best to adapt to the situation and instruct our young in the ways of self control. and dignified treatment of each other.


Even when the sexes were rigidly segregated, boys and girls still found plenty of ways to get it on. In the 1990's I used to go to an elderly priest for spiritual direction. He was ordained in Italy in 1927. Shortly after WWII his order sent him and 3 companions to the USA to establish two parishes for Italian immigrants. On more than one occasion I heard him said that he heard at least as many if not more confessions of sexual sins from teens and young adults in Italy back then as he did at the peak of the "sexual revolution in 1960's and 70's America, or even in present times (the early 1990's). This great priest died a few years shy of his 100th birthday and after more than 75 years as a priest. The Cure of Ars and St Philip Neri and Savonarola all raged against sexual promiscuity and laxness among the youth. This was in the 1400's, 1500's and early 1800's.


So, what does all this demonstrate? It shows that nothing changes. Things will always be as they always have been. We must work on changing the inside rather than the outside. Rather than segregating the sexes or forcing girls and women to wear ridiculous long dresses like the Amish or the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, we must instead work on teaching our kids to be holy and to love holiness. This is the only way to address the problem. So you might want to stop savoring pipedreams about a return to a romanticized past which was never the way it's imagined to be.



--hide--

I'm going to try and answer this as shorty and clearly as I can.

1) What is our primary goal with the lives we have been given? To know, love, serve God and obtain everlasting joy in the beatific vision.

2) If that is our goal and we have a duty to apply ourselves in such a way, isn't the education of our young paramount in that?

3) Our Lady, saints, and many holy people have all told us that sins of the flesh cause more souls to be damned than all other sins combined.

4) How do we avoid sin? By avoiding near occasions of sin.

I believe that what Pius IX has stated in not only this small part of his encyclical but also the entire text of it is very prudent and has all the aims of putting our spiritual live and goals as the first priority. You can see the innocence being lost at a younger and younger age in our current education system and tell me that that is really good for souls. We should be guarding and protecting the innocent and nurturing our children to be saints. I know if God ever blesses me with children when I die and face my personal judgement I will be held accountable for not only my soul, but also those entrusted to me, my wife and children. Are you willing to throw your child's soul to the devil and all those wolves that are waiting to devour them in our current secular system? (The Catholic schools today are in a dreadful state as well as they have incorporated most all of the changes the secular system has adopted).

Feb 18th 2013 new

(Quote) John-324285 said: I'm going to try and answer this as shorty and clearly as I can. 1) W...
(Quote) John-324285 said:

I'm going to try and answer this as shorty and clearly as I can.

1) What is our primary goal with the lives we have been given? To know, love, serve God and obtain everlasting joy in the beatific vision.

2) If that is our goal and we have a duty to apply ourselves in such a way, isn't the education of our young paramount in that?

3) Our Lady, saints, and many holy people have all told us that sins of the flesh cause more souls to be damned than all other sins combined.

4) How do we avoid sin? By avoiding near occasions of sin.

I believe that what Pius IX has stated in not only this small part of his encyclical but also the entire text of it is very prudent and has all the aims of putting our spiritual live and goals as the first priority. You can see the innocence being lost at a younger and younger age in our current education system and tell me that that is really good for souls. We should be guarding and protecting the innocent and nurturing our children to be saints. I know if God ever blesses me with children when I die and face my personal judgement I will be held accountable for not only my soul, but also those entrusted to me, my wife and children. Are you willing to throw your child's soul to the devil and all those wolves that are waiting to devour them in our current secular system? (The Catholic schools today are in a dreadful state as well as they have incorporated most all of the changes the secular system has adopted).

--hide--

On your point 4. Is the innocence lost because boys and girls are educate together or because the society as a whole has degraded and exposes them at a very young age to a signalization inappropriate for their age?

Long before you were born, I attended schools for my first 8 years in a parochial school with girls and that was and is true for most of us. Yet so few become sexually active or even more important sexually aware. In public schools, boys and girls were educated together through out their school experience. Even today, on the whole, young boys and girls will have nothing to do with each other. Yet it is only in mid to late teen age years that the boys and girls became aware of each other in even a non sinful sexual way; i.e they became aware of the opposite sex and what the difference is and is for.

But we were never exposed as you were to the overly suggestive environment that exists today.

Your premise fails on its face.

There are other issues that have nothing to do with sexuality that are valid arguments for the separation of the sexes in education. For example, there is a real bias against boys in education. As a group, teachers are better disposed towards girls than they are to boys. Part of that results from the fact that, on the whole, girls develop faster than boys. In a class of all boys, the effects of that bias could be minimized. But in no way does that or any of the other considerations that might apply, support your belief and the Pope's.

Feb 19th 2013 new

(Quote) John-324285 said: I'm going to try and answer this as shorty and clearly as I can. 1) W...
(Quote) John-324285 said:

I'm going to try and answer this as shorty and clearly as I can.

1) What is our primary goal with the lives we have been given? To know, love, serve God and obtain everlasting joy in the beatific vision.

2) If that is our goal and we have a duty to apply ourselves in such a way, isn't the education of our young paramount in that?

3) Our Lady, saints, and many holy people have all told us that sins of the flesh cause more souls to be damned than all other sins combined.

4) How do we avoid sin? By avoiding near occasions of sin.

I believe that what Pius IX has stated in not only this small part of his encyclical but also the entire text of it is very prudent and has all the aims of putting our spiritual live and goals as the first priority. You can see the innocence being lost at a younger and younger age in our current education system and tell me that that is really good for souls. We should be guarding and protecting the innocent and nurturing our children to be saints. I know if God ever blesses me with children when I die and face my personal judgement I will be held accountable for not only my soul, but also those entrusted to me, my wife and children. Are you willing to throw your child's soul to the devil and all those wolves that are waiting to devour them in our current secular system? (The Catholic schools today are in a dreadful state as well as they have incorporated most all of the changes the secular system has adopted).

--hide--


We must protect our kids from accepting the secular culture of instant gratification and becoming sexually active. Putting them in single sex schools doesn't necessarily accomplish this. There are better and more effective ways to encourage and develop virtue in our young people.



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