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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Mar 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: I didn't realize Friday was make up a statistic day. There is a term for this: it'...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

I didn't realize Friday was make up a statistic day. There is a term for this: it's called calumny.

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As I said before, the real numbers are hard to guess, but two percent seems far too low in my opinion. You just call everything you don't like "calumny."

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Mar 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: The mistake here is the assumption that the rule of celebacy is the root cause of the of ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

The mistake here is the assumption that the rule of celebacy is the root cause of the of the sex abuse scandals.

If that were true, then we would see virtually no instances of sexual abuse among married men or men in a relationship with a women. That is false on its face, because it is exactly this group of men where the highest instances of sexual abuse occur.

Even in this group, the rate of sexual abuse is 2% or less. And among the celibate Catholic clergy it is even lower, even if we assume every priest accused of it was guilty.

The rate of abusers among Protestant clergy is higher than among Catholic Priests. And most protestant clergy are married. The rate of abuse among male school teachers is even higher and most of them are married.

There are legitimate arguments that can be made for a married clergy. But your main argument is not one of them

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Paul, the "assumption that the rule of celibacy is the root cause of the sex abuse scandals" is actually not my main point. Rather, it is that the rule of celibacy has created a curtain of secrecy that attracts these kinds men who practice their perversion behind the perfect alibi. Let's remove this curtain! Let's remove these priests who disgrace the Church's teachings!

Your assertion that married men commit more sexual abuse than priests is no doubt correct but deceptive. Since there are 1000 X more married men than there are priests, then we would expect the number of married men accused of abuse to be 1000 X higher, and so I can't see that comparison as a valid argument.

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Mar 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: What are you arguing against? Where was it claimed that Divine Law requires clergy to be ...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

What are you arguing against? Where was it claimed that Divine Law requires clergy to be celibate?

Day-to-day life in modern society is potentially physically and mentally harmful. Certainly not all people are able to maintain celibacy throughout life; however, many, many people have lived celibately throughout the course of human existence without being harmed.

In case you haven't notice, many of the school teachers arrested for improper relationships with minors/students are married, so that's not a solution for the problem.

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I'm not arguing against Divine Law, thanks for the confirmation that there is no such requirement. It is true that some people handle celibacy better than others. However, it is also known that people in an emotionally healthy (hopefully married) sexual relationship tend to have less mental stress, and that priests have notably higher instances of prostate ailments including prostate cancer.

As I posted earlier, the argument that married men commit sexual abuse as well as compared to priests is deceptive. There are far more married men out there than there are priests and so we would expect a statistically greater number of married men to be involved. The real issue that we must face is that the rule of celibacy has created a veil of secrecy for these men to hide behind and, sadly, I think we are going to be learning alot more about it very shortly.

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Mar 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Joseph-750000 said: Paul, the "assumption that the rule of celibacy is the root cause of the sex abuse scandals...
(Quote) Joseph-750000 said:

Paul, the "assumption that the rule of celibacy is the root cause of the sex abuse scandals" is actually not my main point. Rather, it is that the rule of celibacy has created a curtain of secrecy that attracts these kinds men who practice their perversion behind the perfect alibi. Let's remove this curtain! Let's remove these priests who disgrace the Church's teachings!

Your assertion that married men commit more sexual abuse than priests is no doubt correct but deceptive. Since there are 1000 X more married men than there are priests, then we would expect the number of married men accused of abuse to be 1000 X higher, and so I can't see that comparison as a valid argument.

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I agree that the any priest or bishop who disgrace the Church's teachings should be removed.

If a rule of secrecy exists, and it could well be among the disgraceful ones, it does not arise from the rule of celibacy. It arises solely from their own pervert ion.

I stated the rate of abuse as a percentage. That eliminates any increase solely on the basis that more men (or women) are abusers. The percentage of abusers in the total population is believed to be about 2%. The percentage of priests who abused, even if you count a mere accusation as proof. is much lower than that. For example, one order of priests of approximately 2000+ priests, had just 2 priests proved to have abused. That is a mere 0.1%. The known rate of abusers among school teachers is known to be much higher than that.

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Mar 1st 2013 new

(Quote) Sean-851370 said: As I said before, the real numbers are hard to guess,
(Quote) Sean-851370 said:





As I said before, the real numbers are hard to guess, but two percent seems far too low in my opinion. You just call everything you don't like "calumny."

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Well at least you are admitting that it is your opinion.

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Mar 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Jerry-74383 said: I won't go so far as to suggest he made it up; I think it's more likely he was pa...
(Quote) Jerry-74383 said:

I won't go so far as to suggest he made it up; I think it's more likely he was passing on something he was told by someone he thought was credible

The following article on clerical celibacy from the Catholic Encyclopedia may be of some interest:

www.newadvent.org

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Thank you Jerry for the info:) Obviously there were many reasons throughout the history of the church that brought them to their decisions on celibacy. If the one I brought up was part of it, obviously it wouldn't be publicly talked about. Like what the video is implying about the secret underground of homosexuals in the clergy. I was trying to stay on topic. To me it doesn't seem very farfetched considering all the scandals that are being uncovered that many of us have a hard time believing could happen.

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Mar 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Never claimed everything was all roses. But I do get sick and tired when a bunch of canar...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Never claimed everything was all roses. But I do get sick and tired when a bunch of canards no better than a pile of horse manure gets spouted even if it originated from a priest.

No, I don't have a theorlogical degree, but one is hardly needed. I do know Church history. Learned an awful lot of that in the seminary.

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Reading your other replies, did you also learn how to be rude, sarcastic and snide in the seminary? Imparting information kindly might be a more Christlike way... I have many wonderful, kindly priests for friends and have never had them address me in such a way.

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Mar 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Laura-56149 said: I have a close friend who is a priest. Highly intelligent, very conservative and loves the church....
(Quote) Laura-56149 said:

I have a close friend who is a priest. Highly intelligent, very conservative and loves the church. We were talking about why priests cannot be married. I always had a polly anna view of this. I thought it was because they were following Christ because He was single. Nope. In the early church they could be married. The reason they changed it was because many men(in the church) were homosexuals and they did not want the wives, children etc. receiving the money and lands of the priest, bishop etc. when they died. The church wanted the inheritance. Simple as that! Greed is the reason priests cannot marry. There is nothing new in the fact that homosexual men have been part of running the church from early ages.

We must remember that satan will always attack Christ's church on earth and we must be vigilant in not letting him take over....but be fully aware he will always be working his evil until Christ comes at the end of this time.

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Well, technically the priest didn't own the land their future children could have inherited. It was church property. Never heard about the "they were all homos in the olden days" spiel. It doesn't make much sense, does it, since most homosexuals wouldn't have been fathering children back in 900AD. Unless they know something we don't.


Granted, non-married priests are a tradition, not a doctrine, so it coudl change. However, I dont' think its a viable solution in this day and age. Priests have a lot of pressure on them, they have to have a whole community under their watch. Insert a wife and children, you're going to put too much pressure on the Priest. This isn't like wishy washy branches of Protestantism where a minister can have a wife and kids, those minsters also have multiple lay individauls and other ministers assisting them. Its not like they're being called out at 2 in the morning to administer the last rites to some poor schmuck who got hit by a drunk trying to reverse out of a drive through.

Marriage is hard enough as it is, insert the domains of every Peter, Paul and Maria from the Parish they oversee and a wife could end up feeling very low down the ranks indeed; or the parish suffers from the Priest's familial details.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and the Eastern Rite, Anglican jumping married Priests seem to be managing, but I think we should just leave as is. Celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom is a powerful asset.

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Mar 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: You got that right!! For someone so young, you display more intelligence than a lo...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

You got that right!!

For someone so young, you display more intelligence than a lot of people older and many letters after their names.

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I just have no tact. And I'm not going to bow down to politically correct banter.

Spade's a spade.

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Mar 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Laura-56149 said: You know, you can be rather insulting? Sorry to burst your bubble. I actually would ta...
(Quote) Laura-56149 said:




You know, you can be rather insulting? Sorry to burst your bubble. I actually would take the word of a well regarded friend and priest who has years of knowledge and study than someone that tells me to go read the bible....When did you get your theology degree? Why don't you read the history of the Catholic church? It's not all roses or haven't you noticed. Part of the problem in our church are those people that keep putting their heads in the sand.

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You could always go research the topic for your own clarification.

Abortionists have various degrees and education, yet I doubt you'd take them on their word that the foetus isn't human. Well, I hope you wouldn't.

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