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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Mar 7th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: No, you are missing the point. The only thing rquired to hold ANYTHING in existence is Go...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

No, you are missing the point. The only thing rquired to hold ANYTHING in existence is God. No ifs, ands or buts.

Science is able to explain the mechanisms that God created, but it cannot expalin God, nor what He can or can't do. God can do anything except a contradiction. He is not constrined by the law of physics as He is the author of those laws.

--hide--
Were ther any other building blocks left out of the equation too, like gluons, electrons or quarks?

Which is more likely: When God created everything He made it a point to break the laws He already put in motion and the author of the texts telleing the story wrote it exactly as it happened, period! Or, God initiated everything and allowed the creation run its course according to His plan. He knew what would be the result of the laws He founded so no laws had to be broken to follow His will. The author of the text wrote it to the best of his limited understanding of what happened.

I'm not trying to tell anybody what God can or cannot do. I'm just asking why He would violate His own laws?

Mar 7th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I am not about to get into a scientific argument with you. But your post indicates...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

I am not about to get into a scientific argument with you.

But your post indicates that you are forgetting that God is not constrained by anything He creates. So, it is possible for Him to Create the Earth, long before he created light.

Ultimately, the only thing earth requires to exist is God.

The Church teaches that we are free to believe the creation story verbatim as it is stated in the Bible or that the whole act of creation could have taken 13 billion or any number of years. The only thing we must believe is that God did it.

--hide--

Paul, I agree with you... "God did it." God is the Creator and created all things. He created the entire universe, he is the God of all gods, he is the Almighty. He had done wondrous things beyond our comprehension. God can do all things, because with God nothing is impossible. Thus, he can make the impossible to become possible. So it's possible for him to creat the Earth before he created the light.

Mar 7th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: Were ther any other building blocks left out of the equation too, like gluons, electrons or quark...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

Were ther any other building blocks left out of the equation too, like gluons, electrons or quarks?

Which is more likely: When God created everything He made it a point to break the laws He already put in motion and the author of the texts telleing the story wrote it exactly as it happened, period! Or, God initiated everything and allowed the creation run its course according to His plan. He knew what would be the result of the laws He founded so no laws had to be broken to follow His will. The author of the text wrote it to the best of his limited understanding of what happened.

I'm not trying to tell anybody what God can or cannot do. I'm just asking why He would violate His own laws?

--hide--

Why do you insist on limiting God?

The important pont the bible story of creation is making is that God created everything and everything depends on His will to both come into and remain in existance. Everything else is extranuous to that. Whether he did it all at once and set things in motion with a set of rules that had to be followed; or if He did it exaclty as described are totally immaterial.

The point I am trying to get you to see is that either is possible since everything is possible with God. By His very nature he is not constrained by anything he makles whether it is a material thing or a set of laws.

If you don't grasp that fundamental fact, then you fail to undertand what little we(all of us) do or can know of God for a certainty.

The very question you raised is exactly where any atheistic scientist goes off the deep end and concludes from whatever grasp of science he has tells Him there is no God.

Mar 8th 2013 new

>>Why do you insist on limiting God?

I'm not in any way shape or form limiting God.

>>The important pont the bible story of creation is making is that God created everything and everything depends on His will to both >>come into and remain in existance. Everything else is extranuous to that. Whether he did it all at once and set things in motion >>with a set of rules that had to be followed; or if He did it exaclty as described are totally immaterial.

>>The point I am trying to get you to see is that either is possible since everything is possible with God. By His very nature he is not >>constrained by anything he makles whether it is a material thing or a set of laws.

>>If you don't grasp that fundamental fact, then you fail to undertand what little we(all of us) do or can know of God for a certainty.

Read what I wrote again. I have in no way said anything about His capabilities.

>>The very question you raised is exactly where any atheistic scientist goes off the deep end and concludes from whatever grasp of >>science he has tells Him there is no God.

But since I'm no atheist that's pretty irrelevant, don't you agree?


Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: >>Why do you insist on limiting God? I'm not in any way shape ...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

>>Why do you insist on limiting God?

I'm not in any way shape or form limiting God.

>>The important pont the bible story of creation is making is that God created everything and everything depends on His will to both >>come into and remain in existance. Everything else is extranuous to that. Whether he did it all at once and set things in motion >>with a set of rules that had to be followed; or if He did it exaclty as described are totally immaterial.

>>The point I am trying to get you to see is that either is possible since everything is possible with God. By His very nature he is not >>constrained by anything he makles whether it is a material thing or a set of laws.

>>If you don't grasp that fundamental fact, then you fail to undertand what little we(all of us) do or can know of God for a certainty.

Read what I wrote again. I have in no way said anything about His capabilities.

>>The very question you raised is exactly where any atheistic scientist goes off the deep end and concludes from whatever grasp of >>science he has tells Him there is no God.

But since I'm no atheist that's pretty irrelevant, don't you agree?


--hide--

Oh, come now, when you say that God could not have made the earth before he made light because of specified physical laws, you are limiting God. And if that is not an expression limiting God and His capabilities, then English must not be even my fifth language.

And try reading that sentence again. NO where in that sentence did I say you were an atheist. I did say that your statement is the same as the one atheists trap themselves with. So it is not irrelevent, in fact, it is specifically on point.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Oh, come now, when you say that God could not have made the earth before he made light be...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Oh, come now, when you say that God could not have made the earth before he made light because of specified physical laws, you are limiting God. And if that is not an expression limiting God and His capabilities, then English must not be even my fifth language.

And try reading that sentence again. NO where in that sentence did I say you were an atheist. I did say that your statement is the same as the one atheists trap themselves with. So it is not irrelevant, in fact, it is specifically on point.

--hide--
I'm quite sure English is your first language so, please, let us not go there. I think the misunderstanding between us lies in the fact that we see the nature of light very different. As I stated previously, this has nothing to do with the capabilities of God. I never wrote that God couldn't create earth without it. I wrote that light is an absolute requirement, which to me, as English isn't my first language, is two different statements. But I might be wrong. If so, mea culpa.

Where others get trapped in questioning the existence of God is a topic for another thread. For me it's impossible to look at His creation without seeing Him everywhere, period.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernie-645443 said: Hi James, do you mean that it is not shields and deeds all the way to Valhalla lol ? Good to see...
(Quote) Bernie-645443 said:

Hi James, do you mean that it is not shields and deeds all the way to Valhalla lol ? Good to see you again.



--hide--

Bernie I am shocked, saddened and disappointed by your comment. So ethnic jokes and insults are acceptable on CM now? A viking joke? REALLY. irked This kind of behavior is the last thing I expected from you or anyone on CM. I was going comment before but I decided to hold off but I have since changed my mind as this thread has truly crossed the line. This is beyond uncharitable behavior. it makes me wonders if other ethnic jokes would not be shot down immediately as there would be more people to defend them if our threads would be permeated with them. This is not funny or right in any measure.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Why do you insist on limiting God? The important pont the bible story of creation ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Why do you insist on limiting God?

The important pont the bible story of creation is making is that God created everything and everything depends on His will to both come into and remain in existance. Everything else is extranuous to that. Whether he did it all at once and set things in motion with a set of rules that had to be followed; or if He did it exaclty as described are totally immaterial.

The point I am trying to get you to see is that either is possible since everything is possible with God. By His very nature he is not constrained by anything he makles whether it is a material thing or a set of laws.

If you don't grasp that fundamental fact, then you fail to undertand what little we(all of us) do or can know of God for a certainty.

The very question you raised is exactly where any atheistic scientist goes off the deep end and concludes from whatever grasp of science he has tells Him there is no God.

--hide--

Paul your comment on language has also crossed the line. I personally find that Peter expresses himself admirably and intelligently. Most times more so that many native English speakers. I wonder if any of you snickering at this comment can command yourself so admirably in another language.

It is also very clear from his other posts that this is a devout man who has a deep love and devotion for God. boggled I read his OP and comments and could find no phrase that led me to conclude that he was saying that science matters or supercedes God's power. In fact his OP was saying that by looking at science it is impossible to doubt the existence of God and of his power. I also agree that God does not work in chaos and that he created scientific rules. Peter is saying that God though not bound in any way by these rules created them with such intricacy and in such an interwoven manner that one cannot help but be in awe of such a God who could have put this great master plan together. What in that questions God's majesty? I was also taught in theology class and also in biblical interpretation at Franciscan University by some of the many professors and authors that many of you quote and laud that the bible is without error in the general sense but is not to be taken literally especially the early books. That my friend is what Catholic theologists believe and I for one agree. English is my first language by the way.

I am so shocked by the insults and lack of charity in this thread. This has truly shown me a new side of some posters. Not a good one I might add. Well done Peter for not giving in to and or giving back the insults. clap

Let me conclude with a well known man who like Peter was in awe of God's creation and saw it as a testament to his majesty; King David

one of my favorite psalms.

Psalm 8

O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man,that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hastcrowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoeverpasseth through the paths of the seas. O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
Mar 8th 2013 new

Skipping all the insults. I see it as limiting God. Because often God violates his own laws. If he didn't...alot of us wouldn't be here. There is a belief out there, gnostic, in origin(which is growing in the US), which suggests that God creates and then sits back and watches his creation. This is a very dangerous idea. It implies a lack of concern. How can science explain the incorruptibles. Most scientists that have tried say exactly what you said wouldn't be true. "It violates all natural law". The picture on the cactus cloth at Guadalupe....."It violates all natural law". The resurrection of a human body after death. "It violates all natural law". A big one, the final apparition at Fatima....where the sun came so close to the earth it dried inches of mud in seconds yet no one was scorched. Where many athiest were convinced mainly because....."it violates all natural law". Gods way of doing things is very unknown to us. We do have to trust that the order of creation is as it is in Genesis because there are theological reasons behind some of those, and to switch them around would actually change what people believe. However, we don't have to take it COMPLETELY literal.

I love physics. I love math. I don't know how many people in my family love math. But there is a similarity between religion and the "sciences". You have to start with a known. You can't work from nothing. Well......God can. I forget if the man who wrote the scientific method was a monk or a priest, but he started with knowing....God is behind it, and God can stop all this by stopping his thought. We exist because God is thinking of us. If he were to stop thinking of us, we would cease to exist.....but that would violate natural law? Right? Yet we believe it is absolutely possible. I mean, God coming down in the form of a man......I want to know how many laws THAT violates. A person can definitely have faith but limit God. I see many religions do it. When they claim that Jesus was not both man and God....because you can't be human AND God. What is that doing? Limiting God. Mary can't be sinless, because ALL humans sin. Well, if God wants to make one that doesn't....he can.

Now, I'm off to a kids carnival :) Guten Nacht

Mar 8th 2013 new

Skipping all the insults. I see it as limiting God. Because often God violates his own laws. If he didn't...alot of us wouldn't be here. There is a belief out there, gnostic, in origin(which is growing in the US), which suggests that God creates and then sits back and watches his creation. This is a very dangerous idea. It implies a lack of concern. How can science explain the incorruptibles. Most scientists that have tried say exactly what you said wouldn't be true. "It violates all natural law". The picture on the cactus cloth at Guadalupe....."It violates all natural law". The resurrection of a human body after death. "It violates all natural law". A big one, the final apparition at Fatima....where the sun came so close to the earth it dried inches of mud in seconds yet no one was scorched. Where many athiest were convinced mainly because....."it violates all natural law". Gods way of doing things is very unknown to us. We do have to trust that the order of creation is as it is in Genesis because there are theological reasons behind some of those, and to switch them around would actually change what people believe. However, we don't have to take it COMPLETELY literal.

I love physics. I love math. I don't know how many people in my family love math. But there is a similarity between religion and the "sciences". You have to start with a known. You can't work from nothing. Well......God can. I forget if the man who wrote the scientific method was a monk or a priest, but he started with knowing....God is behind it, and God can stop all this by stopping his thought. We exist because God is thinking of us. If he were to stop thinking of us, we would cease to exist.....but that would violate natural law? Right? Yet we believe it is absolutely possible. I mean, God coming down in the form of a man......I want to know how many laws THAT violates. A person can definitely have faith but limit God. I see many religions do it. When they claim that Jesus was not both man and God....because you can't be human AND God. What is that doing? Limiting God. Mary can't be sinless, because ALL humans sin. Well, if God wants to make one that doesn't....he can.

Now, I'm off to a kids carnival :) Guten Nacht

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