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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Feb 21st 2013 new

(Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said: Just wanted to say one more thing before the thread locks. Patrick, it wasn't the "mild crit...
(Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said: Just wanted to say one more thing before the thread locks. Patrick, it wasn't the "mild criticism" that was problematic. It was the speculation regarding his motives, Even if you did "qualify it". And to everyone here, if you're interested in what John Paul II had to say in the theology of the body, read John Paul II. That talks from the Wednesday audiences really aren't that difficult, and then you'll be seeing directly what he said, instead of having it filtered by Christopher West or myself or anyone else. If that's too much at first, start with Familiaris Consortio. Reading his work directly will clear up misunderstandings, which I've seen a lot of on this thread. And one final note, everyone on this thread is clearly very supportive of the church's teaching on sexuality, which is what's really important here. So thanks to all of you for that!
--hide--



that was a mistake on my part for sure... it became a distraction when really it was just something i wondered... it wasn't meant to slander chris west as i said i didnt have a problem with whatever his motivations were/are

Feb 21st 2013 new

(Quote) Patrick-341178 said: (Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said: Just wanted to say one more thing before the thre...
(Quote) Patrick-341178 said:

Quote:
MaryBeth-278310 said: Just wanted to say one more thing before the thread locks. Patrick, it wasn't the "mild criticism" that was problematic. It was the speculation regarding his motives, Even if you did "qualify it". And to everyone here, if you're interested in what John Paul II had to say in the theology of the body, read John Paul II. That talks from the Wednesday audiences really aren't that difficult, and then you'll be seeing directly what he said, instead of having it filtered by Christopher West or myself or anyone else. If that's too much at first, start with Familiaris Consortio. Reading his work directly will clear up misunderstandings, which I've seen a lot of on this thread. And one final note, everyone on this thread is clearly very supportive of the church's teaching on sexuality, which is what's really important here. So thanks to all of you for that!




that was a mistake on my part for sure... it became a distraction when really it was just something i wondered... it wasn't meant to slander chris west as i said i didnt have a problem with whatever his motivations were/are

--hide--


MaryBeth,

Good idea. That way u can compare and contrast and "spend some time with it." Spending time with scripture and Church teaching builds up are knowledge and more importantly makes us more Spiritual. In other words we have a closer relationship with Jesus. Here is a link to Pope John-Paul's original talks. The site is EWTN which is trusted. God bless MaryBeth and Patrick and all the others that posted on this thread.

http://www. ewtn.com/ library/ PAPALDOC/ JP2TBIND. HTM

(Take out the spaces. It is not posting correctly otherwise)



Mick



Feb 22nd 2013 new

(Quote) Ronald-937125 saidI agree with Christopher West that marriage is all about sex. Sex should not be for the unmarried....The ...
(Quote) Ronald-937125 saidI agree with Christopher West that marriage is all about sex. Sex should not be for the unmarried....The sexual act is taken as too casual in our culture and is regarded as being OK because it may be popular in NY, where you see unmarried couples in bed together on family TV every week; e.g., two and a half men...the TV show inspired by Satan.

--hide--

For those so concerned w/ sex, wonder how many of those relationships last?

Feb 23rd 2013 new

(Quote) Bob-59786 said: For those so concerned w/ sex, wonder how many of those relationships last?
(Quote) Bob-59786 said:

For those so concerned w/ sex, wonder how many of those relationships last?

--hide--


I think that there are studies out there about the importance of a sex life in marriage...I haven't done research into it, but the high divorce rate in our country is probably not related primarily to a couples sex life.

There was recently a thread here about taking viagra to improve a person's sex life in marriage which doesn't seem to be very healthy.

I think Christopher West was stressing sex in marriage because it's for marriage as God intended and not for the unmarried.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said: Jerry -- I agree that speaking too explicitly or coarsely about this subject is problematic, a...
(Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said:

Jerry -- I agree that speaking too explicitly or coarsely about this subject is problematic, and that this was a problem I was concerned about in Christopher's early work. Christopher has acknowledged himself that he was too explicit when he first began speaking and writing on the subject. I have discussed this with him personally, and I have seen nothing problematic in that regard in many, many years. I believe that Dr. von Hildebrand is basing her critique solely on her his early work as well.

Mick -- I'd like to know what "errors" you are referring to. Every book of Christopher's that I have in my library carries the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur. Which means his work was reviewed by a theologian (in the case of the book I'm looking at right now, that theologian was William E. May, one of the foremost and most highly regarded experts on the theology of marriage and family in the Church today.) And the Imprimatur means that it was formally approved by a Bishop, as representative of the Church, as being free of doctrinal error. That's the official system for gaining the Church's formal approval -- not counting how many priests' comments appear in the front of the book.

I am a little bit surprised at the presumption -- on the part of someone who doesn't know the man -- that he doesn't consult with representatives of the Church, or that he doesn't have recourse to the sacrament of reconciliation. Again, you are very wrong on both counts.

Again, I'm going to keep repeating -- I don't believe that his ideas or approach are beyond criticism. I have shared my own concerns with him personally, as noted above. But I felt I needed to clarify, given the uninformed and presumptive nature of some of Patrick and Mick's statements.

--hide--

MaryBeth,


In West's defense, this is what I meant is going on (please excuse my prior lack of articulation)...

ROMANS 8:18

"For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do." Because mankind is still under the effects of concupiscence and under the power of the evil one (maybe even if more so if we enter his domain).

In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus says this in another way (I can't find the exact passage so I am paraphrasing):

"With Me you can do anything without Me you can do nothing. Be totally dependent on My will." He means this literally! He also says “without Me you are misery and wretchedness” (because He is the good in us and others).

We can do NOTHING without Him. That is why we thank Him for all the good and bad that happens in our lives. The good (if they are truly good and sins that we may have enjoyed inappropriately) are blessings and the bad (because we gain Glory for God by patiently enduring suffering, persecution, abuse and disgrace).

Also, ask him to pray "not my will but Your will be done" daily and while asking for guidance or during prayers of petition. Because we are to follow Jesus and that is the prayer that Jesus spoke during His agony in the garden. In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus says "My heart (meaning St. Faustina... and us). Be especially on your guard against self-willfulness; even the smallest thing should bear the seal of obedience." (St. Faustina's Diary at 362)

Mick

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Mick-929473 said: (Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said: Jerry -- I agree that speaking too explicitly...
(Quote) Mick-929473 said:

Quote:
MaryBeth-278310 said:

Jerry -- I agree that speaking too explicitly or coarsely about this subject is problematic, and that this was a problem I was concerned about in Christopher's early work. Christopher has acknowledged himself that he was too explicit when he first began speaking and writing on the subject. I have discussed this with him personally, and I have seen nothing problematic in that regard in many, many years. I believe that Dr. von Hildebrand is basing her critique solely on her his early work as well.

Mick -- I'd like to know what "errors" you are referring to. Every book of Christopher's that I have in my library carries the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur. Which means his work was reviewed by a theologian (in the case of the book I'm looking at right now, that theologian was William E. May, one of the foremost and most highly regarded experts on the theology of marriage and family in the Church today.) And the Imprimatur means that it was formally approved by a Bishop, as representative of the Church, as being free of doctrinal error. That's the official system for gaining the Church's formal approval -- not counting how many priests' comments appear in the front of the book.

I am a little bit surprised at the presumption -- on the part of someone who doesn't know the man -- that he doesn't consult with representatives of the Church, or that he doesn't have recourse to the sacrament of reconciliation. Again, you are very wrong on both counts.

Again, I'm going to keep repeating -- I don't believe that his ideas or approach are beyond criticism. I have shared my own concerns with him personally, as noted above. But I felt I needed to clarify, given the uninformed and presumptive nature of some of Patrick and Mick's statements.


MaryBeth,


In West's defense, this is what I meant is going on (please excuse my prior lack of articulation)...

ROMANS 8:18

"For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do." Because mankind is still under the effects of concupiscence and under the power of the evil one (maybe even if more so if we enter his domain).

In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus says this in another way (I can't find the exact passage so I am paraphrasing):

"With Me you can do anything without Me you can do nothing. Be totally dependent on My will." He means this literally! He also says “without Me you are misery and wretchedness” (because He is the good in us and others).

We can do NOTHING without Him. That is why we thank Him for all the good and bad that happens in our lives. The good (if they are truly good and sins that we may have enjoyed inappropriately) are blessings and the bad (because we gain Glory for God by patiently enduring suffering, persecution, abuse and disgrace).

Also, ask him to pray "not my will but Your will be done" daily and while asking for guidance or during prayers of petition. Because we are to follow Jesus and that is the prayer that Jesus spoke during His agony in the garden. In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus says "My heart (meaning St. Faustina... and us). Be especially on your guard against self-willfulness; even the smallest thing should bear the seal of obedience." (St. Faustina's Diary at 362)

Mick

--hide--


So the "train wreck" was West doing "the evil he did not want to do." In my opinion because the worldly domain that he was in at the time.

A very good way to overcome "this world" is to do what I suggest above and the sacraments. That way we are sure to stay in Christ's domain as much as possible.


Mick

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Mick-929473 said: (Quote) MaryBeth-278310 said: Jerry -- I agree that speaking too explicitly...
(Quote) Mick-929473 said:

Quote:
MaryBeth-278310 said:

Jerry -- I agree that speaking too explicitly or coarsely about this subject is problematic, and that this was a problem I was concerned about in Christopher's early work. Christopher has acknowledged himself that he was too explicit when he first began speaking and writing on the subject. I have discussed this with him personally, and I have seen nothing problematic in that regard in many, many years. I believe that Dr. von Hildebrand is basing her critique solely on her his early work as well.

Mick -- I'd like to know what "errors" you are referring to. Every book of Christopher's that I have in my library carries the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur. Which means his work was reviewed by a theologian (in the case of the book I'm looking at right now, that theologian was William E. May, one of the foremost and most highly regarded experts on the theology of marriage and family in the Church today.) And the Imprimatur means that it was formally approved by a Bishop, as representative of the Church, as being free of doctrinal error. That's the official system for gaining the Church's formal approval -- not counting how many priests' comments appear in the front of the book.

I am a little bit surprised at the presumption -- on the part of someone who doesn't know the man -- that he doesn't consult with representatives of the Church, or that he doesn't have recourse to the sacrament of reconciliation. Again, you are very wrong on both counts.

Again, I'm going to keep repeating -- I don't believe that his ideas or approach are beyond criticism. I have shared my own concerns with him personally, as noted above. But I felt I needed to clarify, given the uninformed and presumptive nature of some of Patrick and Mick's statements.


MaryBeth,


In West's defense, this is what I meant is going on (please excuse my prior lack of articulation)...

ROMANS 8:18

"For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do." Because mankind is still under the effects of concupiscence and under the power of the evil one (maybe even if more so if we enter his domain).

In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus says this in another way (I can't find the exact passage so I am paraphrasing):

"With Me you can do anything without Me you can do nothing. Be totally dependent on My will." He means this literally! He also says “without Me you are misery and wretchedness” (because He is the good in us and others).

We can do NOTHING without Him. That is why we thank Him for all the good and bad that happens in our lives. The good (if they are truly good and sins that we may have enjoyed inappropriately) are blessings and the bad (because we gain Glory for God by patiently enduring suffering, persecution, abuse and disgrace).

Also, ask him to pray "not my will but Your will be done" daily and while asking for guidance or during prayers of petition. Because we are to follow Jesus and that is the prayer that Jesus spoke during His agony in the garden. In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus says "My heart (meaning St. Faustina... and us). Be especially on your guard against self-willfulness; even the smallest thing should bear the seal of obedience." (St. Faustina's Diary at 362)

Mick

--hide--


I may have misused the word concupiscence, what I meant to say is our tendency to sin (any sin) due original sin.


Mick

Mar 8th 2013 new

So another "twist" to Christopher West's background: www.remnantnewspaper.com


I actually attended one of Christopher West's seminars years ago. If my memory serves me correct, he referred to himself as a recovering porn/sex addict; so that might explain his obsession with sex.


A deacon at my church, and the father-in-law of our diocesan marriage and family director, is married to a woman that had a stroke shortly after the birth of their 4th child. He not only cared for his sickly wife, he also was the sole caretaker of their 4 young children. There was no sex; does that mean that their marriage was any "less" of a marriage than that of the marriage where the husband and wife had frequent intercourse? On the contrary, their marriage was an example of "perfect love" as described by St. Thomas Aquinas, "to will the good of the other".


Do I believe that Christopher West is financially profitting from Pope JP II TOB? Of course he is (in a BIG $$$ way). What else would anyone expect of a former rock band drummer? He is a "performer", the same way that the defrocked founder of the LifeTeen movement was a "performer".


Read the ORIGINAL Pope JB II TOB, not the Christopher West version, and you will realize that there is ALOT less "sex" and alot more "love".


Is Christopher West a revolutionary or a heretic? Neither, he is an opportunist.

Mar 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Joan-529855 said: So another "twist" to Christopher West's background: http://www.remnantnewspaper.com...
(Quote) Joan-529855 said:

So another "twist" to Christopher West's background: www.remnantnewspaper.com


I actually attended one of Christopher West's seminars years ago. If my memory serves me correct, he referred to himself as a recovering porn/sex addict; so that might explain his obsession with sex.


A deacon at my church, and the father-in-law of our diocesan marriage and family director, is married to a woman that had a stroke shortly after the birth of their 4th child. He not only cared for his sickly wife, he also was the sole caretaker of their 4 young children. There was no sex; does that mean that their marriage was any "less" of a marriage than that of the marriage where the husband and wife had frequent intercourse? On the contrary, their marriage was an example of "perfect love" as described by St. Thomas Aquinas, "to will the good of the other".


Do I believe that Christopher West is financially profiting from Pope JP II TOB? Of course he is (in a BIG $$$ way). What else would anyone expect of a former rock band drummer? He is a "performer", the same way that the defrocked founder of the LifeTeen movement was a "performer".


Read the ORIGINAL Pope JB II TOB, not the Christopher West version, and you will realize that there is ALOT less "sex" and alot more "love".


Is Christopher West a revolutionary or a heretic? Neither, he is an opportunist.

--hide--

Just to let everyone know, my statements were a defense of West. I was acknowledging the affects of the powers and principalities of "this world." The source of the weeds amongst the wheat of JPII message. We are all affected by them in some way in our life. We almost never realize it until after... or sometimes not at all. That is why it is better to avoid them all together.

Pornography and abortion are the perfect examples. Being exposed and or drawn to it is the affect of "world rulers of this present darkness."

THE LETTER OF PAUL TO THE EPHESIANS 6:12

For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places (it’s a spiritual battle).


Another example is the affect of Satan who is a “murder from the start” and a “liar and a cheat”. He can be seen in the mass killing at Sandy Hook and Jodi Arias.

I have no doubt that West intentions are good. He is spreading the message of the Church. We would not be doing so if he was not chosen by Jesus. He is mostly in Jesus' domain but is being affected by this world. He is a brother in Christ that like all of us is not perfect.


Mick

Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Mick-929473 said: Chris, Please read the post "Anyone Practice The Devotion to the Divi...
(Quote) Mick-929473 said:


Chris,


Please read the post "Anyone Practice The Devotion to the Divine Mercy or Theology of the Body?" started yesterday. It gives a basic idea of TOB. The book i suggest is not by West but:


Healy, Mary (2011-06-30). Men And Women Are From Eden: A Study Guide to John Paul II's Theology of the Body.



Mick

--hide--



Thank you for the book suggestion. I have been looking for a non-Christopher West study guide to the TOB for a while.

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