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This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
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Mar 8th 2013 new

One final one, the Stigmata....a woman who bled a mans blood from her hands.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Marissa-529206 said: Skipping all the insults. I see it as limiting God. Because often God violates his own laws. If...
(Quote) Marissa-529206 said:

Skipping all the insults. I see it as limiting God. Because often God violates his own laws. If he didn't...alot of us wouldn't be here. There is a belief out there, gnostic, in origin(which is growing in the US), which suggests that God creates and then sits back and watches his creation. This is a very dangerous idea. It implies a lack of concern. How can science explain the incorruptibles. Most scientists that have tried say exactly what you said wouldn't be true. "It violates all natural law". The picture on the cactus cloth at Guadalupe....."It violates all natural law". The resurrection of a human body after death. "It violates all natural law". A big one, the final apparition at Fatima....where the sun came so close to the earth it dried inches of mud in seconds yet no one was scorched. Where many athiest were convinced mainly because....."it violates all natural law". Gods way of doing things is very unknown to us. We do have to trust that the order of creation is as it is in Genesis because there are theological reasons behind some of those, and to switch them around would actually change what people believe. However, we don't have to take it COMPLETELY literal.

I love physics. I love math. I don't know how many people in my family love math. But there is a similarity between religion and the "sciences". You have to start with a known. You can't work from nothing. Well......God can. I forget if the man who wrote the scientific method was a monk or a priest, but he started with knowing....God is behind it, and God can stop all this by stopping his thought. We exist because God is thinking of us. If he were to stop thinking of us, we would cease to exist.....but that would violate natural law? Right? Yet we believe it is absolutely possible. I mean, God coming down in the form of a man......I want to know how many laws THAT violates. A person can definitely have faith but limit God. I see many religions do it. When they claim that Jesus was not both man and God....because you can't be human AND God. What is that doing? Limiting God. Mary can't be sinless, because ALL humans sin. Well, if God wants to make one that doesn't....he can.

Now, I'm off to a kids carnival :) Guten Nacht

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I completely agree with you. God is not constrained by laws at all but he creates them and when one looks at the intricacies of them all we can see directly evidence of the wonder of God. I am also of the thought that our very existence is because God is thinking of us and keeping us into being. What was being argued here was not, and I may be wrong ( often am embarassed ), was whether or not the creation story is to be taken literally. Catholic theology says no. There are many signs and wonders of faith that are contrary to natural law. In fact our many named Saints are required to procure these wondrous acts, miracles if you may, from the hands of God before they are canonized.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: I'm quite sure English is your first language so, please, let us not go there. I think the mi...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

I'm quite sure English is your first language so, please, let us not go there. I think the misunderstanding between us lies in the fact that we see the nature of light very different. As I stated previously, this has nothing to do with the capabilities of God. I never wrote that God couldn't create earth without it. I wrote that light is an absolute requirement, which to me, as English isn't my first language, is two different statements. But I might be wrong. If so, mea culpa.

Where others get trapped in questioning the existence of God is a topic for another thread. For me it's impossible to look at His creation without seeing Him everywhere, period.

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Sorry, the misunderstanding is strictly on your part.

I stated that I was not going to argue science with you. I merely pointed out that your premise was false on its face because you stated, with no reservations, that God could not create the earth before He Created Light. And I have continually pointed out to you that by saying that you are limiting God.

God can create earth without light. He can also create a light that in no way conforms to what human science understands light to be. He could create a universe that does not rely on carbon in any form to make it up. He can create creatures that in no way resemble human beings and he can infuse them with a soul and they would be, just as we humans are, like Him, created in His own Image and Likeness.

Now if you agree that God can create earth without light ,then it does not need light only HIs will. Therefore, in your own words, you cannot conclude that, "... light is an absolute requirement." and therefore the creation story as found in the Bible is impossible.

I also merely pointed out to you that by using the explanation of why the bible creation story is wrong, is making the same fundamental error that any scientist who looks at his own learning and concludes that science proves that God does not exist for the simple reason that God is not constrained by any laws he may have created.

The only thing God cannot do is perform a contradiction; i.e. He cannot create a rock He can't lift.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: Paul your comment on language has also crossed the line. I personally find that Peter ex...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

Paul your comment on language has also crossed the line. I personally find that Peter expresses himself admirably and intelligently. Most times more so that many native English speakers. I wonder if any of you snickering at this comment can command yourself so admirably in another language.

It is also very clear from his other posts that this is a devout man who has a deep love and devotion for God. I read his OP and comments and could find no phrase that led me to conclude that he was saying that science matters or supercedes God's power. In fact his OP was saying that by looking at science it is impossible to doubt the existence of God and of his power. I also agree that God does not work in chaos and that he created scientific rules. Peter is saying that God though not bound in any way by these rules created them with such intricacy and in such an interwoven manner that one cannot help but be in awe of such a God who could have put this great master plan together. What in that questions God's majesty? I was also taught in theology class and also in biblical interpretation at Franciscan University by some of the many professors and authors that many of you quote and laud that the bible is without error in the general sense but is not to be taken literally especially the early books. That my friend is what Catholic theologists believe and I for one agree. English is my first language by the way.

I am so shocked by the insults and lack of charity in this thread. This has truly shown me a new side of some posters. Not a good one I might add. Well done Peter for not giving in to and or giving back the insults.

Let me conclude with a well known man who like Peter was in awe of God's creation and saw it as a testament to his majesty; King David

one of my favorite psalms.

Psalm 8

O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man,that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hastcrowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoeverpasseth through the paths of the seas. O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

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Shara, at no time have I questioned Peter's devotion intelligence. Nor have I questioned, per se, his command of the English language. I keep, pointing out to him that the argument he uses to point out that the creation story as found in the bible is not accurate because, in his own words, light is an absolute requirement for earth to exist.

I pointed that out right off the bat, because all that is required for anything to come into existance is God's will that it happen, without regrad to any "laws of nature"that God may have created as well.

I might also point out, that my reference about command of the language was addressed to myself. Peter's response, attests to that fact. So, if I crossed the line, I did so against myself not Peter or anyone else.

Mar 8th 2013 new

(Quote) Shara-929649 said: I completely agree with you. God is not constrained by laws at all but he creates them a...
(Quote) Shara-929649 said:

I completely agree with you. God is not constrained by laws at all but he creates them and when one looks at the intricacies of them all we can see directly evidence of the wonder of God. I am also of the thought that our very existence is because God is thinking of us and keeping us into being. What was being argued here was not, and I may be wrong ( often am ), was whether or not the creation story is to be taken literally. Catholic theology says no. There are many signs and wonders of faith that are contrary to natural law. In fact our many named Saints are required to procure these wondrous acts, miracles if you may, from the hands of God before they are canonized.

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Shara, I was quite clear in my initial response to Peter, that I was not arguing that the Biblical story of creation is accurate in all its details. I pointed out the fact that the Church allows each of us to believe the creation story exactly as written or or an alternative one that allows for the universe, or at least earth, to be some 13 billion+ years old.

From the beginning, I have pointed out that it is entirely possible that earth was created before light as long as we understand God (as far as it possible for humans to understand God) can do anything and everything.

Peter is arguing science; i.e. "... light is an absolute necessity." But it is not necessary to God.

Science cannot tell us anything about the nature of God, because God cannot be measured, He is not material (except in the Human nature of Jesus Christ). All science can do is describe our world and the laws of Nature. Once it does so in all its intricacies, then as Fr. Spitzer points out in his book and TV series, the heavens (His Creation) proclaim the His Glory.

Mar 8th 2013 new

Peter, when I look through a microscope, or run a PCR and retrieve a sequence of code for the DNA of an organism we might or might not be able to see, when I research a parasite and find how it interacts with its host and the world in general, when I lay out an ecosystem web, when I look at an infant, when I see the sunrise or set and the stars at night, when I see a beautiful flower blooming despite drought all about it, I am in awe of God. I am often questioned as to how I can reconcile being a scientist with also being religious and for me there is no conflict. Science is a gift from God through which He is revealed to us in some of the most intricate and exquisite ways.

Science can no more "test" God, than religion can explain how to do a PCR. They are two different realms, it is like arguing apples and oranges to argue between creationism and evolution, which I will note was NOT your question. Your question as I read it, was basically, doesn't the world around you put you in awe of God the Creator? And, for me it is an unequivocal yes. We have many scientific fields today because men of God wanted to know God. And, we can know something of Him through the wonders He has made and our own inquisitiveness into how it could possibly be. Most science is reductionist in nature and I would argue in comparison to the Divine, all science is reductionist, it can only address the physical observable world. (Even though parts of it are basically unseen for those physicists among us :-)).

Creation and the stories of how it came to be in the Bible, have a far more important truth to share, it is not so much about the world about us, but the great love God has for us and all of His creation -- it is the story of our Salvation and as such is concerned with our soul. It's a story of stewardship and interconnectedness. Science can only address our bodies and not our souls. (Even though there have been attempts to test the wieght of a soul :-)) We are truly blessed to be surrounded with the beauty of the Divine all about us. And, I feel both humbled and excited about those glimpses science provides. What an exquisite world we live in and what a gift that science allows us a small glimpse of the true depth and the staggering realization that we still know so very little.

Mar 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Lauren-927923 said: Peter, when I look through a microscope, or run a PCR and retrieve a sequence of code for the DN...
(Quote) Lauren-927923 said:

Peter, when I look through a microscope, or run a PCR and retrieve a sequence of code for the DNA of an organism we might or might not be able to see, when I research a parasite and find how it interacts with its host and the world in general, when I lay out an ecosystem web, when I look at an infant, when I see the sunrise or set and the stars at night, when I see a beautiful flower blooming despite drought all about it, I am in awe of God. I am often questioned as to how I can reconcile being a scientist with also being religious and for me there is no conflict. Science is a gift from God through which He is revealed to us in some of the most intricate and exquisite ways.

Science can no more "test" God, than religion can explain how to do a PCR. They are two different realms, it is like arguing apples and oranges to argue between creationism and evolution, which I will note was NOT your question. Your question as I read it, was basically, doesn't the world around you put you in awe of God the Creator? And, for me it is an unequivocal yes. We have many scientific fields today because men of God wanted to know God. And, we can know something of Him through the wonders He has made and our own inquisitiveness into how it could possibly be. Most science is reductionist in nature and I would argue in comparison to the Divine, all science is reductionist, it can only address the physical observable world. (Even though parts of it are basically unseen for those physicists among us :-)).

Creation and the stories of how it came to be in the Bible, have a far more important truth to share, it is not so much about the world about us, but the great love God has for us and all of His creation -- it is the story of our Salvation and as such is concerned with our soul. It's a story of stewardship and interconnectedness. Science can only address our bodies and not our souls. (Even though there have been attempts to test the wieght of a soul :-)) We are truly blessed to be surrounded with the beauty of the Divine all about us. And, I feel both humbled and excited about those glimpses science provides. What an exquisite world we live in and what a gift that science allows us a small glimpse of the true depth and the staggering realization that we still know so very little.

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Brilliant response that answers everyone as i think that we are all saying the same thing but misunderstandings are happening all around. clap

Mar 9th 2013 new

Hello, everyone. Good morning and God bless! I find this thread fascinating. So many great things to think about. Allow me to add another thing to think about regarding creation. At what point did God instantiate the laws that govern the universe? Biblically, this point is left for us to ponder for it isn't present in the creation narrative. Isn't it possible that He did this at the very moment He created the light? smile

Mar 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Peter-933860 said: What are your thoughts about the creation? Can you look at nature, a flower, the ocean, the sun, ...
(Quote) Peter-933860 said:

What are your thoughts about the creation? Can you look at nature, a flower, the ocean, the sun, a nebula or a super cluster of galaxies without wanting to fall on your knees in awe and admiration of the beauty of it all?

* Are you aware of the fact the structure of a single proton is too complex for us to calculate, even using the combined computing power on the whole planet?

* The diameter of the sun is 3000 times less than the diameter of the outer planet Neptune. The diameter of the proton is 100.000 times less than the diameter of the hydrogen atom. This means that there is waaaay more empty space in a atom then in our solar system. Or is it really empty space...

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Yes, I have experienced the awe of nature especially when climbing mountains. I can understand why men in the Bible, including Jesus, would climb a mountain to pray.

I have visited the Creation Museum in Northern KY and have found it very interesting and would recommend it for anyone wanting to get a different perspective on creation as the Bible explains it. It's amazing that there are more Baptist's here in the Bible belt that believe in the creation story than Catholics in the northern US. There are probably more highly intelligent people that believe in creation (even though they may not fully understand the meaning in the Bible about it) than intelligent people that believe only in evolution.

It's also sad that the media athiest views have a lot of influence in our society... that comes out of NY city. I don't understand how Catholics in New York and Maryland can be pro-abortion and pro-homosexual marriage when it is a mortal sin...it seems like the only explanation would be satans influence with the media in those highly populated areas.

Mar 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Craig-940185 said: Hello, everyone. Good morning and God bless! I find this thread fascinating. So many great things...
(Quote) Craig-940185 said:

Hello, everyone. Good morning and God bless! I find this thread fascinating. So many great things to think about. Allow me to add another thing to think about regarding creation. At what point did God instantiate the laws that govern the universe? Biblically, this point is left for us to ponder for it isn't present in the creation narrative. Isn't it possible that He did this at the very moment He created the light?

--hide--

Yes!

He could also have created everything in one instance as the Big Bang theory suggests with everything evolving from that by the laws he created to "operate" the world. That would even allow for the extremist form of Darwin's theory except that we are required to believe that at some point in that process He directly intervened and infused a primate with a soul and at that point created man in His own image and likeness.

It is also possible that this all occurred a mere 6-7 thousand years ago and the scientific evidence that exists to show the earth to be 13+ billion years old is just one of God's "jokes" on mankind to show man that in the end we really are not as smart as we think we are.

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