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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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Catholics and Condoms

Mar 15th 2013 new

I'm wondering if anyone can find a direct quote from the new Pope on condom use for disease prevention? I've come to think more recently that condom use might be acceptable in a VERY limited context: it might not be additionally sinful, if having sex outside of marriage, to wear a condom for the purposes of disease prevention. The sin is the premarital sex, not the condom, and failing to wear a condom might even be additionally sinful. Sex ouside of marriage is always sinful.

Some Bishops and Cardinals have supported such a view, and I haven't found anything to the contrary in the Catechism or Humane Vitae. In both documents the subject is the use of contraception (to prevent conception). Even when the refernce applies more apparetly to condoms, it is always within a marital context, be it from the heading of the chapter or the contents within.

In either case, there are conflicting reports of Pope Francis' view on this when he was a cardinal: "the Guardian reports that, despite his many conservative stances (and possible war crimes), Pope Francis believes condoms "can be permissible" to prevent the passage of infection."

But other sources suggest the opposite.

There was an article on this uncertainty recently: abcnews.go.com

I've googled for a direct quote, but can't find anything, probably because most of the info is in Spanish.

Anyone have any quotes?

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

Condoms are never ok. Period.


The church has never taught it is permissible in some circumstances, most likely as was the case with benedict...media has taken the popes words out of context.


The contraception is as much as sin as the premarital sex

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

In the first place, Condoms have a huge failure rate and do not protect against the spread of AIDS and other diseases. The fact of the matter is, education and evangelization is the only effective way to stop the spread of STDs.


Condoms are never ok, because they interefere with the purpose of sex, which is procreation. Benedict said that using a condom might be indictiatve of a growing moral awareness and a growing positive conscience because that person realizes their actions do affect other people. but they are still outright condemned

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

Quote?

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: Condoms are never ok, because they interefere with the purpose of sex, which is procreation.
(Quote) Sam-948516 said: Condoms are never ok, because they interefere with the purpose of sex, which is procreation.
--hide--

No source? The purpose of premarital sex is not procreative. Pre-marital sex is against the divine purpose.

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

If condoms are not ok in the context of marriage, which is to procreate, why would they be allowed and permissible outside of marriage?


All condoms do is encourage the problem, not prevent it. Education and evegenilization is the only solution to the AIDS problem. We had an African student in one of our classes tell us that the governments there say things such as "if you rape a virgin, you can get rid of the AIDS".


The true purpose of sex is to procreate. Outside of marriage there should be no premarital sex. Therefore condoms do not even fit into play.


If the attitude is "well since they will do it anyways, may as well let them use condoms" this just goes to show that those doing this need to understand the Gospel and be educated on these risks, and be encouraged in the ways of abstience. By using condoms you encourage this attitude and do not get at the heart of the issue, which comes down to inability to control ones passions, not understanding the consequences of sex etc.


Catechism of the Catholic Church, Par 2339 discusses men needing to learn how to control their passions


www.catholic.com this is a good response to birth control.





LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Theodoric-68091 said: No source? The purpose of premarital sex is not procreative. Pre-marital sex is again...
(Quote) Theodoric-68091 said:

No source? The purpose of premarital sex is not procreative. Pre-marital sex is against the divine purpose.

--hide--


and the CCC also in 2399 and 2370 also discuss the issue

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: If condoms are not ok in the context of marriage, which is to procreate, why would they be allowed and per...
(Quote) Sam-948516 said: If condoms are not ok in the context of marriage, which is to procreate, why would they be allowed and permissible outside of marriage? [/quote]

Because outside of marriage disease is more prevelant. Think cancer treatment that incidently kills a fetus. Purpose is to treat cancer. unintended effect is to destoy the fetus. This is permissible. WIth condoms, purpose is to prevent disease. incidental effect is to prevent conception. Nuanced by: 1) it's a sinful context but also 2) sex outside of marriage is not intended to lead to conception (because of point 1)

Quote:
All condoms do is encourage the problem, not prevent it. Education and evegenilization is the only solution to the AIDS problem. We had an African student in one of our classes tell us that the governments there say things such as "if you rape a virgin, you can get rid of the AIDS".[/quote]

At a POLICY level this is true. I support the current policy of discouraging condom distribution. At the PERSONAL level sex if two people WILL have sex, sex with a condom is safer than sex without. This is fact. But sinfulness operates at a PERSONAL level.

Quote:
The true purpose of sex is to procreate. Outside of marriage there should be no premarital sex. Therefore condoms do not even fit into play.

Yes, but people do sin, and there are sins within sins and degrees of sin. Someone could shoot another in the head or in the foot. Both are sins, but the latter is more sinful. An HIV positive person could have sex with or without a condom. Without a condom the sin and with a condom they recklessly sin and endanger the other person's life to a greater degree.

[quote] If the attitude is "well since they will do it anyways, may as well let them use condoms" this just goes to show that those doing this need to understand the Gospel and be educated on these risks, and be encouraged in the ways of abstience. By using condoms you encourage this attitude and do not get at the heart of the issue, which comes down to inability to control ones passions, not understanding the consequences of sex etc.


Again, policy. Educated on these risks. Encourage abstience. But we're not al perfect. If you had a sister and she was going to have sex with guys she meets at a club, would you tell her not to do it. But you're not the controller of her free will, and if she were to do it anyway, I would hope that you would hope she would wear a condom. I don't think many priests in the confessiona would (or should) say to her: "I forgive you for your sin of pre-marital sex and your sin of protecting your health while having pre-martial sex." Education goes both ways. Catholics need to be educated that wearing the condom in that particular context is not the encouraging the attitude of permissiveness, but an attitude of safety in the face of a sinful world.

[quote]Catechism of the Catholic Church, Par 2339 discusses men needing to learn how to control their passions

www.catholic.com this is a good response to birth control.

--hide--

And neither the Catechism or Humane Vitae discuss sex outside of marriage. The could have but the deliberately don't.



LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

Two thoughts came to mind:

1. I have read (not recently, cannot give you a source) that a PIERCED condom would be permissible in MARRIED relations if one partner had herpes or a similar disease. In such a case, the chance of infecting the partner would be lessened, but procreation not prevented.

2. Saying that using a condom is better than not (in other cases) is like saying, "If you're going to hit your wife, use an open hand instead of a closed fist" or (isn't it Mohammed who says this?) "If you beat your wife the stick must be slimmer than your thumb".
The wife beating/illicit sex is the EVIL...the discussion is about small differences in the degree of wrongness.

LOCKED
Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Theodoric-68091 said: And neither the Catechism or Humane Vitae discuss sex outside of marriage. The could have but ...
(Quote) Theodoric-68091 said:

And neither the Catechism or Humane Vitae discuss sex outside of marriage. The could have but the deliberately don't.

--hide--

Why would they? Sex outside marriage is a grave sin regardless of whether one uses a condom or not.

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