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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: (Quote) Edward-926612 said: Just reading up on the blog "Rorate Coeli...
(Quote) David-364112 said:

Quote:
Edward-926612 said:

Just reading up on the blog "Rorate Coeli." Things could be bumpy. :-/



Such nastiness they posted about our new Holy Father. For your own sake, stay away from their splenetic and selfish rants.

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The new Pope will get the Graces necessary from God to fulfill his duty.Having said that,his history is part of who he is and what he believes.Lets hope he cooperates with the Holy Ghost.The gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Catholic Church ,but that doesn't mean we can't get a bad Pope. God knows we have had some in the past. Thank God that Benedict set the record straight that the Traditional Latin Mass has never been abrogated, and no Priest can be forbidden to say it,not even by a Pope! So if this Pope (God forbid)tries,it will be in vain!

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Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: The new Pope will get the Graces necessary from God to fulfill his duty.Having said that,his hist...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

The new Pope will get the Graces necessary from God to fulfill his duty.Having said that,his history is part of who he is and what he believes.Lets hope he cooperates with the Holy Ghost.The gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Catholic Church ,but that doesn't mean we can't get a bad Pope. God knows we have had some in the past. Thank God that Benedict set the record straight that the Traditional Latin Mass has never been abrogated, and no Priest can be forbidden to say it,not even by a Pope! So if this Pope (God forbid)tries,it will be in vain!

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He WON'T forbid it or try to forbid it.


Maybe this papacy will teach the trads humility, patience, and compromise. I just wish tghey'd stop the bad-mouthing. It's truly awful. Did you read that screed from the Argentinian guy on Rorate Coeli? AWFUL.

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Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: The new Pope will get the Graces necessary from God to fulfill his duty.Having said that,his hist...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

The new Pope will get the Graces necessary from God to fulfill his duty.Having said that,his history is part of who he is and what he believes.Lets hope he cooperates with the Holy Ghost.The gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Catholic Church ,but that doesn't mean we can't get a bad Pope. God knows we have had some in the past. Thank God that Benedict set the record straight that the Traditional Latin Mass has never been abrogated, and no Priest can be forbidden to say it,not even by a Pope! So if this Pope (God forbid)tries,it will be in vain!

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Any Pope can abrogate any form of the mass if he wishes.. The Mass, at least in the Latin Church, has changed many times in the past and will change many times in the future. The fact that one form lasted for a very long time as the TLM did, does not endow it with immutability. As long as the essentials are there, Offertory, consecration and communion, it is a valid Mass.

Why can't people get that through their heads?

I don't care for the NO anymore than anyone else. If for no other reason it violates the KISS rule. There are too many allowed variations and options. It lacks simplicity and elegance. Nevertheless it is a valid form of the Mass and would be recognized as such by even the earliest Christians.

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Mar 14th 2013 new
How Summorum Pontificum was blocked and trampled on in Buenos Aires: facts, not fantasy and disinformation Posted by New Catholic at 3/14/2013 06:43:00 PM rorate-caeli.blogspot
"Wow, people who know nothing of the Argentine situation suddenly know a lot. It really is not enough to know what dulce de leche is or that it is the land of the tango to be aware of what goes on in Buenos Aires. And some are spreading disinformation about a diocese they do not even know! Unbelievable. But let us go back to facts not from gringos but from our porteño correspondents who know, live and suffer them. First, we never said that Summorum had not been applied anywhere in Argentina. Cardinal Bergoglio was not the only Bishop of the whole of Argentina, but the Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Naturally, his powers were limited to the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires, which is territorially very small, limited to the area of the Federal Capital itself*** - and, even then, not in the churches of the Military Ordinariate, as in all countries. So what happened there that prompted us to say that the application of Summorum in that archdiocese was "non-existent" and Marcelo González to speak that, "a sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass, he has only allowed imitations of it in the hands of declared enemies of the ancient liturgy"? Ah, say the Google-searchers whose only experience of Argentina was watching Evita in one of their Broadway trips, he "allowed" a Summorum mass immediately after it went into effect: there it is, inthis Clarín report- sent by many readers and posted by many... Well, under Summorum, a bishop does not "allow" or "implement" anything - that was the Ecclesia Dei regimen. Naturally, under Ecclesia Dei, nothing was "allowed" in Buenos Aires, even though Argentina has the largest traditional Catholic community in South America. Anyway, under Summorum, a place was designated by the Archdiocese in the church of San Miguel Arcángel. Quite a relief, right? As a matter of fact, that was just the beginning of the problems. The Mass was celebrated only on the Fourth Sunday of each month in the crypt of the church of San Miguel Arcángel. And more, as reported in 2010 by Página Católica, a most trusted blog on Argentine Catholic affairs that has been in our blogroll since its beginning: [C]ontrary to what common sense dictates and Ecclesia Dei clarified, Father Dotro [the "chaplain" for the Traditional Mass specifically chosen by Abp. Bergoglio] follows the calendar of the Ordinary Form, reading, therefore, the lessons of this form. But, as he does not limit himself to this innovation, he does not read them, but has them read by the faithful. The modified Mass is therefore left without the Epistle, Gradual, or Gospel.
As informed by the media [as informed above by the Clarin article], on September 16, 2007, the first day in which it was celebrated by who would soon be the Chaplain of the traditionalists, some one hundred people filled the Crypt of San Miguel. [...] From the one hundred people who were present in the Mass on the first day, not more than two or three are left... Once a month! Because liturgical "modernism" is not in the interest of the faithful who adhere to tradition. For that, it is enough, and more [than enough], the number of parishes of Buenos Aires that, under the watch of the Cardinal-Primate, do as they please in the Ordinary Form. Father Dotro and his superior, who cannot ignore what is going on, in this way mock traditionalists about whom they should care.
The poor blogger, so he would not be accused of falsifying anything, even recorded the new lectionary lessons read out in the once-a-month mass... [A full translation of the post should be posted by us soon.] And so what was the great and generous application of Summorum Pontificum in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires? One Novus Ordo-TLM hybrid once a month. And, as it happens to any badly celebrated Latin Mass, the number of attending faithful fast dwindled from one hundred to a handful. And, naturally, it was discontinued. So, as correctly mentioned in WikiMissa, there is currently not a single actual Traditional Mass according to the 1962 Missal celebrated by diocesan priests of the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires. And every priest who tried to truly implement Summorum in his parish - that is, out of their own initiative, without "authorization" from the Bishop - was ordered to stop. It is what happened to a poor priest who tried to do it in the chapel of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, in October 2007, and was personally ordered by the Archbishop to stop in November 2007. [The complete post of this shameful event, also mentioned by Página Católica, in a 2011 post, will also be translated and posted shortly.] That is how the then-Archbishop applied Summorum in his diocese. Now, will that have any influence in his current Supreme position? We shall see. We certainly do have a very liturgical new pope, with determined liturgical views, implemented from his very first minutes as pope. Whether these views will be pleasing to some who are now criticizing us is an altogether different matter. On the other hand, those who are used to bending will certainly have no problem with the changes. *** This is also important: the diocesan Traditional Masses mentioned by dear Fr. Finigan as occurring in Argentinado not include any in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires precisely because there is not any there, which is limited to the Federal Capital (Autonomous City of Buenos Aires, which, despite the name, is outside Buenos Aires Province, in a comparable situation to the District of Columbia and Maryland). The three mentioned by him are in Buenos Aires Province: Villa Celina (La Matanza Partido, Diocese of Lomas de Zamora), Rawson (Chacabuco Partido, Diocese of Mercedes-Luján), and La Plata (Capital of the Province of Buenos Aires, Archdiocese of La Plata). The Archbishop's territory became a Summorum-free zone." rorate-caeli.blogspot.com
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Mar 14th 2013 new

Faithful Catholicism www.mrctv.org

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Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Such nastiness they posted about our new Holy Father. For your own sake, stay away f...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Such nastiness they posted about our new Holy Father. For your own sake, stay away from their splenetic and selfish rants.

--hide--


TOTALLY agree. Wow. I cannot believe it over there!


I have never been to an EF Mass. I have been strictly NO my entire life, mostly because that's what my parishes have been.


BUT I take a big exception to what some traddies are saying, that the NO doesn't produce good families, vocations or Catholics. My parish has the tabernacle in the center of the Church. We have TONS of vocations. We are run by Dominicans, not the diocese, if that makes a difference--but I know lots of loyal, loving, incredibly reverent priests who do the NO. Basically, the kind of people I know that GO to EF Masses have totally turned me off to finding one, because they're criticizing the new Pope because he doesn't wear an amice? I had to look up what the heck that was!



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Mar 14th 2013 new

(Quote) Emily-647155 said: BUT I take a big exception to what some traddies are saying, that the NO doesn't produce ...
(Quote) Emily-647155 said:


BUT I take a big exception to what some traddies are saying, that the NO doesn't produce good families, vocations or Catholics. My parish has the tabernacle in the center of the Church. We have TONS of vocations. We are run by Dominicans, not the diocese, if that makes a difference--but I know lots of loyal, loving, incredibly reverent priests who do the NO. Basically, the kind of people I know that GO to EF Masses have totally turned me off to finding one, because they're criticizing the new Pope because he doesn't wear an amice? I had to look up what the heck that was!

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That the generalizations don't apply to your parish doesn't necessarily mean they aren't valid for what they are: generalizations.

The fact is that both priestly and religious vocations have plummeted since Vatican II. Some blame this on the NO Mass, but reality isn't that simple. First, in practice the term NO is about as meaningless as 'kissing' because both refer to a very broad spectrum of activity. NO Masses can be very reverent, very wild, or anywhere in between.

It's great that your parish has lots of vocations, but that is far from the norm. I would venture to guess that the liturgy there also falls outside the norm (as the location of your tabernacle suggests).

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Mar 15th 2013 new
The earliest form of Mass that we have intact is that found in the Apostolic Constitutions, which is closer to that used in the Eastern Church to this day.

en.wikipedia.org

The changes to the Roman rite over the centuries were comparatively minor to what happened with the Novus Ordo, which was a completely new rite of Mass.
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Mar 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Emily-647155 said:I have never been to an EF Mass. I have been strictly NO my entire life, mostly because that's wh...
(Quote) Emily-647155 said:
I have never been to an EF Mass. I have been strictly NO my entire life, mostly because that's what my parishes have been.
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I am too old to make that claim, but I have been to several in my travels
including one or two in non english speaking parishes...
We need to learn from your parish- vocations are few here towards the priesthood.

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Mar 17th 2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: Such nastiness they posted about our new Holy Father. For your own sake, stay away f...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


Such nastiness they posted about our new Holy Father. For your own sake, stay away from their splenetic and selfish rants.

--hide--



Watch and pray. That's all we can do. I know the family who runs Rorate Coeli --- good people. Definitly not sedevacantist.


We have a right to the TLM guarenteed by Quo Primumum of St. Pius V and affirmed by our Pope Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI.

"Nonetheless, the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Bl. John
XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same 'Lex
orandi,' and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage."


If the allegations are true then it's troubling that "due honor" was not given for this "venerable and ancient usage." I know of many dioceses today where this is still the case, open hostility for the extraordinary form. It's slowly changing however. For instance, Florida by in large used to be very hostile to the TLM but now you have the FSSP saying Mass in three cities, Archbishop Wenski who said a Pontificial Solemn High Mass of Feb 2, 2012 and the seminarians in Florida assisting at that Mass and others throughout Miami.

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