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Well... false prophets roaring to life.


So we all knew it was coming. We all knew that the anti Catholic fundamentalist were going to hijack St. Malachy's prophecy and portray Peter the Roman as Anti-Christ yadda yadda yadda. There are also many prophecies floating around from a supposed seer thewarningofthesecondcoming.com I believe is the name of the site. While both of which are ripe for error (given the fact that St. Malachy said nothing about Peter the Roman being the anti Christ, if his prophecies are even true) many of our Catholic brothers and sisters have fallen prey to these things because they do not know the faith.


As a small effort in the New evengelization, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread to help educate on end times prophecy that we then could in turn teach others who are learning the faith, who are willing and open to hearing the Catholic side of thing , and to brush up on our own knowledge of these and other end time apologetics.


What I want to try and do here is, for when we inevitably encounter this, construct a reasonable defense and apologetic response to these kind of charges, be able to point out to Catholics the errors in doctrine for some of these prophecies. The goal here is to give a charitable defense and teaching method that wont just turn people away immediately.


I do not know if I can post this link or not? I hope the moderators can forgive me if I have done something wrong. But below is from Catholic answers.com. It is a tract that can give us a good starting point and introduce those who are not familiar with this site a new resource to use and refer to. I think it is one of the better apologetic sites out there.


www.catholic.com


Alright everyone, fire away with ideas. I suppose we should start with Peter the Roman and St. Malachy. What tools do we have in our toolbox to help steer people in the right direction?

03/15/2013 new
While they're spouting off, I whistle the "Twilight Zone" theme. When they finally shut up, I remind them that they just boarded the express train to Crazy City.
03/15/2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: While they're spouting off, I whistle the "Twilight Zone" theme. When they finally shut up...
(Quote) David-364112 said: While they're spouting off, I whistle the "Twilight Zone" theme. When they finally shut up, I remind them that they just boarded the express train to Crazy City.
--hide--


haha charitable David, charitable

03/15/2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: haha charitable David, charitable
(Quote) Sam-948516 said:


haha charitable David, charitable

--hide--


i could always ask them to put down the supermarket tabloids and pick up the gospels.

03/15/2013 new

(Quote) David-364112 said: i could always ask them to put down the supermarket tabloids and pick up the gospels...
(Quote) David-364112 said:


i could always ask them to put down the supermarket tabloids and pick up the gospels.

--hide--


Well that is a little better lol. Sigh, I figured more people would be interested in this thread though. Ah well, there is always next time. It is up here, maybe someone else will stumble upon it

03/15/2013 new

I have nothing to say right now but I want to follow this thread so I am posting this comment. Easy future access.

03/15/2013 new

I wonder why people spend so much time obsessing over something which not only runs contrary to what our Lord tells us in scripture (You know not the hour...) but also over something for which they have no control? I think the time would be better spent in prayer or confession, depending on one's priorities. But I guess some folks are given to drama and would rather chat up all of the eerie coincidences than heeding our Lord's admonition to simply be prepared by living our lives according to His teachings. Thank Him for His blessings, benevolence, and never ending forgiveness. Ask Him to help you to serve Him to the best of your abilities, and your reward will already be written in Heaven regardless of any prophecy of doom.

03/15/2013 new

(Quote) John-146319 said: I wonder why people spend so much time obsessing over something which not only runs contrary to wh...
(Quote) John-146319 said:

I wonder why people spend so much time obsessing over something which not only runs contrary to what our Lord tells us in scripture (You know not the hour...) but also over something for which they have no control? I think the time would be better spent in prayer or confession, depending on one's priorities. But I guess some folks are given to drama and would rather chat up all of the eerie coincidences than heeding our Lord's admonition to simply be prepared by living our lives according to His teachings. Thank Him for His blessings, benevolence, and never ending forgiveness. Ask Him to help you to serve Him to the best of your abilities, and your reward will already be written in Heaven regardless of any prophecy of doom.

--hide--


I agree..but it is a problem and we do need to deliver the type of message you gave to others. However, it starts by good education. Not the teachings, but the "why" behind them. Why should people not care about the end of the world? Why should they focus on the here and now? When confronted with this type of end times prophecy, how do they handle it? How do they evangelize the person they are talking to? How do they plant those seeds of reason to sprout and allow them grow fuller in faith.

By learning the why, we can express our faith and explain it to others and defend it all the while growing in it...something that is desperately needed in our day and age...millions of Catholics simply do not know their faith...and this is the message of the New Evangelization.

03/15/2013 new

I suppose a good start to get the conversation going would be the Pre tribulation rapture.


The pre tribultation rapture is the belief that before the great tribulation spoken in the end times, Jesus is going to come and snatch away those faithful Christians and spare them the torments of the tribulation. This is the dominant position held by fundamentalist today. There are many problems with this however...I guess a good place to start is a brief history.


1. It was never preached in the early Church, never had such a view been held up until 1800ish when it was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby, in a movement known as dispensationalism. Many fundamentalist will respond with a list of vague out of context references to people like St. Jerome using the word Rapture in his Latin translation of the vulgate..however keep in mind the Catholics do not deny that a rapture could happen...but it will not happen before the tribulation. Regardless, in the case of St. Jerome, he was not using the word rapture in the sense that fundamentalist use it today. So what we have, is a novel doctrine preached about 150-200 years ago, not held by any of the early Christians. It has been widely spread among fundamentalist especially with the production of the "Left behind" novels...but the funny thing is in these novels, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe the good people are left and the bad people are taken away. Showing a person who holds this doctrine that 1. it is new, and 2. it is largely popularized by a fictional book series is a good place to start in explaining this belief.


Before looking at what they base it on, let us look at the consequences of such a belief.


1. a pre tribulation rapture means that people who believe they are good Christians are expecting that they will be saved before the tribulation, they believe they will be taken up by Jesus, or raptured away..What will this do for those people that hold this view and, when the tribulation happens whenver it happens, do not get raptured? How do you think this will affect their faith? As far as they know, they were good and now they have not been raptured. What hope would they feel after this? Fear? Complete inability to collect themselves and figure out the Truth. This doctrine may seem harmless but because it is false it will have untold consequences on those who hold it at the time of the tribulation... getting it out of society now and rooting it out as much as possible will limit this type of scenario.


2. Convincing a person that there is no pre tribulation rapture will help ground them in God. If they are always focused and looking for the signs of the times, that is less time they are spending praying, reading the scriptures, and focusing on their faith. They are always looking for the next big sign, getting sucked into the next end of the world prophecy, and not doing as our Lord told us. Conversely, grounding them in Faith, helping them to understand the true meaning of suffering for Christ, and allowing them to look to the here and now and persevering in grace will give them a much better chance at salvation and open them up to the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church.


Finally I want to point out a few key verses that this is based on..namely 1 thessolinians 4:15-16 "For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.


Taken by itself, this verse certainly sounds convincing...but the key to virtually all fundamentalist claims is that they do not take verses in context.


The context of this verse is this... at this time there were many who believed that they were going to witness the second coming of Christ.. the Thessalonians were no exception to this. The Thessalonians were concerned that those who had died were not going to be ressurected with Christ, so St. Paul was giving them words of comfort and assuring them that those who had fallen asleep were promised the same salvation and resurrection. Let us add the context of this quote, looking at verse 12 from the same chapter (4). "And we will not have you ignorant , brethern, concerning them that are asleep, that you NOT BE SORROWFUL, even as others who have no hope. 13 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again; even so them WHO HAVE SLEPT THROUGH JESUS, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall NOT PREVENT THEM WHO HAVE SLEPT. and the last verse of the chapter, 17: Wherefore COMFORT YE ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDs.


Once you add the rest of the verse and the context, it is easy to see what is actually being talked about here. Look at verse 16 again...we who are alive and WHO ARE LEFT...left after what? Verse 14 THE COMING OF THE LORD. After the coming of the Lord are those who are alive taken up, following the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and we will again be united in heaven.


If you take this type of approach with other verses they use...you will see similar tactics.


Always check contexts, and compare it with what the rest of the bible says. if the bible said nothing else, and it was only verse 15 and 16 it would be different. But the coming of the Lord is triumphant and glorious..not quiet, then leaving, then loud again. 2 comings..not three, or four, or even some believe in five.


Here are a couple of resources that are helpful


www.catholic.com


Catholic answers is one of my favorites.


www.youtube.com


Tim staples: former baptist pastor now Catholic apologist.

03/15/2013 new

(Quote) Sam-948516 said: I suppose a good start to get the conversation going would be the Pre tribulation rapture. <...
(Quote) Sam-948516 said:

I suppose a good start to get the conversation going would be the Pre tribulation rapture.


The pre tribultation rapture is the belief that before the great tribulation spoken in the end times, Jesus is going to come and snatch away those faithful Christians and spare them the torments of the tribulation. This is the dominant position held by fundamentalist today. There are many problems with this however...I guess a good place to start is a brief history.


1. It was never preached in the early Church, never had such a view been held up until 1800ish when it was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby, in a movement known as dispensationalism. Many fundamentalist will respond with a list of vague out of context references to people like St. Jerome using the word Rapture in his Latin translation of the vulgate..however keep in mind the Catholics do not deny that a rapture could happen...but it will not happen before the tribulation. Regardless, in the case of St. Jerome, he was not using the word rapture in the sense that fundamentalist use it today. So what we have, is a novel doctrine preached about 150-200 years ago, not held by any of the early Christians. It has been widely spread among fundamentalist especially with the production of the "Left behind" novels...but the funny thing is in these novels, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe the good people are left and the bad people are taken away. Showing a person who holds this doctrine that 1. it is new, and 2. it is largely popularized by a fictional book series is a good place to start in explaining this belief.


Before looking at what they base it on, let us look at the consequences of such a belief.


1. a pre tribulation rapture means that people who believe they are good Christians are expecting that they will be saved before the tribulation, they believe they will be taken up by Jesus, or raptured away..What will this do for those people that hold this view and, when the tribulation happens whenver it happens, do not get raptured? How do you think this will affect their faith? As far as they know, they were good and now they have not been raptured. What hope would they feel after this? Fear? Complete inability to collect themselves and figure out the Truth. This doctrine may seem harmless but because it is false it will have untold consequences on those who hold it at the time of the tribulation... getting it out of society now and rooting it out as much as possible will limit this type of scenario.


2. Convincing a person that there is no pre tribulation rapture will help ground them in God. If they are always focused and looking for the signs of the times, that is less time they are spending praying, reading the scriptures, and focusing on their faith. They are always looking for the next big sign, getting sucked into the next end of the world prophecy, and not doing as our Lord told us. Conversely, grounding them in Faith, helping them to understand the true meaning of suffering for Christ, and allowing them to look to the here and now and persevering in grace will give them a much better chance at salvation and open them up to the fullness of Truth in the Catholic Church.


Finally I want to point out a few key verses that this is based on..namely 1 thessolinians 4:15-16 "For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who in Christ, shall rise first. 16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.


Taken by itself, this verse certainly sounds convincing...but the key to virtually all fundamentalist claims is that they do not take verses in context.


The context of this verse is this... at this time there were many who believed that they were going to witness the second coming of Christ.. the Thessalonians were no exception to this. The Thessalonians were concerned that those who had died were not going to be ressurected with Christ, so St. Paul was giving them words of comfort and assuring them that those who had fallen asleep were promised the same salvation and resurrection. Let us add the context of this quote, looking at verse 12 from the same chapter (4). "And we will not have you ignorant , brethern, concerning them that are asleep, that you NOT BE SORROWFUL, even as others who have no hope. 13 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again; even so them WHO HAVE SLEPT THROUGH JESUS, will God bring with him. 14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall NOT PREVENT THEM WHO HAVE SLEPT. and the last verse of the chapter, 17: Wherefore COMFORT YE ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDs.


Once you add the rest of the verse and the context, it is easy to see what is actually being talked about here. Look at verse 16 again...we who are alive and WHO ARE LEFT...left after what? Verse 14 THE COMING OF THE LORD. After the coming of the Lord are those who are alive taken up, following the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and we will again be united in heaven.


If you take this type of approach with other verses they use...you will see similar tactics.


Always check contexts, and compare it with what the rest of the bible says. if the bible said nothing else, and it was only verse 15 and 16 it would be different. But the coming of the Lord is triumphant and glorious..not quiet, then leaving, then loud again. 2 comings..not three, or four, or even some believe in five.


Here are a couple of resources that are helpful


www.catholic.com


Catholic answers is one of my favorites.


www.youtube.com


Tim staples: former baptist pastor now Catholic apologist.

--hide--


Thank you for this, Sam. I would like to pick your brain a little more.


I do know people who follow the messages of Maria Divine Mercy (warningsecondcoming.com) and are quite "evangelical" in promoting her messages. I have read some of the messages, but not enough to discern what the problems are really. The website does seem to promote Catholic values, though the prophecies are worrisome. What are the problems with these messages based on your knowledge?


I have read Fr. Charles Aminjon "The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life" (originally published in 1881, and was promoted by St. Therese of Lisieux) and the vision given in that book seems to be very different from that of the warningsecondcoming.

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