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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: I am sure that when the TLM was first introduced, it too was not welcomed with open arms by ever...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



I am sure that when the TLM was first introduced, it too was not welcomed with open arms by everyone. The NO was not introduced at Vatican II. But Paul VI called for the revision of the Mass in an attempt to make the Mass more meaningful and accessible to the Faithful as called for by Vatican II. I can agree that it is has failed in that.



Long before you were born and before Vatican II, people complained constantly, despite the ready accessibility and relatively inexpensive costs of missals to overcome the problem, that because the Mass was in Latin they had no idea what was going on. They fervently complained about the priest facing away from them so that they felt remote from him and the Mass.



The simple fact is that when the complaints were met, the people found they they still did not understand what was going on. They left in droves many to go to Protestant churches or worse, because their services were more emotionally fulfilling, despite the fact that they lack substance.



Long before you were born, I attended thousands of masses now referred to as TLMs. The reverance displayed ranged from excellent to even worse than I see now at NO masses.



But all that aside, don't forget, the Mass in early Christian times was celebrated in private homes. The celebrant faced the people women sat at the dinner table. Music came along later but when first introduced reflected the music of the day with Christian words, just like the "folk masses"of our day were an attempt to relate the music to people today. The celebrants wore no special vestments. They wore their everyday clothes, which today's vestments resemble. There were no special chalices, etc. Everyday eating utensils, cups and dishes were used.



More formal forms of the Mass and vestments developed only after Constantine made it legal to practice Christianity.



All that aside, the abuses you see, and whether you have seen them or not they also exist in TLM masses, arise solely from individuals, both priest and laity, and not from the form of the Mass. A good part of them arise from the general culture as it exists today. Less formal dress, lack of manners, etc..



About the time you were born, no women worthy of the name would appear dressed as they do today to go to the mall or "downtown" to shop, wearing a hat and gloves. My Dad, who could have been your great Grandfather, always wore a suit and tie. The suit jacket only came off in the house but never his ties until he went to bed. He would even do garden work that way, without the suit jacket of course. Today he would be considered a nut case.



Those changes are cultural and not the result of the NO.

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I'm sure you are right that both forms of the Mass can be offered reverently and not so reverently. I'm speaking from personal experience only. I understand what you are saying about fashions. I prefer dressing modestly and for the most part only where skirts because they make me feel more feminine. I know the dress vs. pants thing has been done to death in these forums and I don't want to go there. I'm speaking of what I've seen at Mass specifically. When I go to the TLM I see men in suits or at least dress shirts and slacks and women in long skirts and veils. At the NO I attend it's jeans for both sexes and some of what the women wear is enough to make you blush. I generally try to keep my eyes on the floor.

It seems that the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice has been all but lost. The focus has shifted from a sacrifice to a meal. If people really grasped that they were standing at the foot of the cross, would they still dress the way they are now? The Mass isn't supposed to be about us, it's supposed to be worship of God, the sacrifice of the Son to the Father in atonement for our sins. I just don't think that the fact that 75% of Catholics don't go to Mass and like 90% don't believe in the Real Presence is a coincidence. Nor is it coincidence that there are usually only two or three of us at Confession at my NO parish but when I visits any of my four siblings who attend the TLM the line for Confession wraps around the church.
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Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said: At least in the USA, the NO mass came about just after the baby boom. The masses were plumb-full of ...
(Quote) Jacqueline-556574 said:

At least in the USA, the NO mass came about just after the baby boom. The masses were plumb-full of children. Having gone to the NO mass for most of my life, I would say that children are most likely better accomodated at the NO mass, rather than the EF. I do not know if the population demands at the time of Vatican II influenced the changes, but it certainly appears likely in regards to the USA population at the time.



If asked in the 1960's, which mass I liked better, I would have quickly answered, the NO, due to the English and the folk mass.
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I think it's a sad thought that children could be better accommodated at the NO Mass. It's not supposed to be about us and we have to teach our children that. My brother has four boys aged four and under (set of twins in there) and they are the most well behaved bunch at Mass because they've been taught...same goes for every other family at their parish. There are more graces attached to the High Mass and our kiddos need all of the graces they can receive, especially in the current world we live in. I heard that satanists pay a lot more for hosts consecrated at the TLM because they realize this as well. We just need to get away from this idea that the Mass is about the people...it's already much to Protestant feeling as it is. Jesus expressed his sadness to many saints about the way he is treated by his priests as the Mass. You should read what he told Padre Pio about this stuff. And speaking of Padre Pio, he used to post signs about proper attire for women at Confession and Mass and refused to hear their Confessions until they went home and changed into something appropriate to wear to approach the Lord.
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Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: You are making the assumption that God sees everything as a binary option set (right, wrong), an...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



You are making the assumption that God sees everything as a binary option set (right, wrong), and you do not appear to consider the possibility that God might be perfectly happy with more than one possible choice.



God doesn't just look at our external appearance and actions. He knows our innermost thoughts and motivations.



It is do doubt far better in God's eyes to be receiving communion in the hand while wearing tie-dye and blue jeans at a novus ordo Mass where they are playing the music on a banjo, but recieving it with a humble and contrite heart than it is to receive it on the tounge kneeling in a three piece suit at a Tridentine Mass where the music is played on an organ but recieving it with an arrogant and proud heart. In the latter case one is far more at risk of commiting the sin of eating and drinking the body and blood unworthily.



This isn't to say there is a single thing inherently wrong with recieving on the tongue, kneeling, dressing up, or the Tridentine Mass.



A lot of the things that get people all worked up are in the end nothing but arbitary human conventions. Humanity could have just as easily decided that standing on one foot, not bowing, was a sign of respect, or that nodding your head, not extending the middle finger was insulting. God is looking at what we really are trying to do, not the motions we are going through.



I do not personally care to go to Mass in blue jeans, nor would I care to go to one where they are playing the banjo. But I don't delude myself that those are questions of moral right and wrong; they are my preferences.

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This whole "I'm okay, you're okay..God doesn't care how we approach Him so long as we approach Him" line of thought seems very relativistic and modern to me. God doesn't change. He is still the same God He was when the priests used to have to tie a rope around their ankle when entering the Holy of Holies in case He struck them dead. Priests are still supposed to kneel at the altar after Mass and say a prayer of reparation for any mistakes they unknowingly made while saying the Mass. There has to be objective truth and a right way and wrong way to offer sacrifice to Him.

And the issue still remains that the NO that most of us attend isn't even offered according to its own rubrics. The NO still calls for the priest to face God, chant is to have "pride of place", "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" are to be used only in unusual circumstances, there aren't supposed to be altar girls, and the list goes on. So we can't even really compare the Masses when the new Mass isn't even being offered without countless abuses.
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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: This whole "I'm okay, you're okay..God doesn't care how we approach Him so lon...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

This whole "I'm okay, you're okay..God doesn't care how we approach Him so long as we approach Him" line of thought seems very relativistic and modern to me. God doesn't change. He is still the same God He was when the priests used to have to tie a rope around their ankle when entering the Holy of Holies in case He struck them dead. Priests are still supposed to kneel at the altar after Mass and say a prayer of reparation for any mistakes they unknowingly made while saying the Mass. There has to be objective truth and a right way and wrong way to offer sacrifice to Him.

And the issue still remains that the NO that most of us attend isn't even offered according to its own rubrics. The NO still calls for the priest to face God, chant is to have "pride of place", "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" are to be used only in unusual circumstances, there aren't supposed to be altar girls, and the list goes on. So we can't even really compare the Masses when the new Mass isn't even being offered without countless abuses.
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This Bishop has a good point on reverence and the Eucharist. I would have to agree with his assessment.www.youtube.com

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Mar 24th 2013 new

Yes. Each Mass fills a need. That is a good thing.


Ed

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Mar 24th 2013 new

Gabor,


I understand that you no longer want to converse. That is your choice.


You have, however, twice now written that I have "twisted your words", yet you have failed to provide a single specific example of how I have done so. I beleive that my comments about your posts have reflected well the intent, context and spirit of what you had written. If that is not so, then point out a specific example from my comments. Perhaps you should re-read your own comments and reflect on how they may come across to people with differing opinions. Is it not poor form to make implications and innuendos about others and then claim that people are "twisting your words" when they reflect back to you how your comments come across? If you are not going to stand behind your comments, then don't make them in the first place.


Perhaps Pope Francis was chosen to lead us for the next years because he appears to be a very humble man. I'm sure that we will learn many good things from his example.


God bless.


Ed

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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: This whole "I'm okay, you're okay..God doesn't care how we approach Him so lon...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

This whole "I'm okay, you're okay..God doesn't care how we approach Him so long as we approach Him" line of thought seems very relativistic and modern to me. God doesn't change. He is still the same God He was when the priests used to have to tie a rope around their ankle when entering the Holy of Holies in case He struck them dead. Priests are still supposed to kneel at the altar after Mass and say a prayer of reparation for any mistakes they unknowingly made while saying the Mass. There has to be objective truth and a right way and wrong way to offer sacrifice to Him.

And the issue still remains that the NO that most of us attend isn't even offered according to its own rubrics. The NO still calls for the priest to face God, chant is to have "pride of place", "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" are to be used only in unusual circumstances, there aren't supposed to be altar girls, and the list goes on. So we can't even really compare the Masses when the new Mass isn't even being offered without countless abuses.
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Straw man argument.

The objective truth is that none of the prophets of the Old Testament nor Christ spoke or taught in Latin. The objective truth is that all of Scripture were authored in Hebrew or Greek, not Latin. The objective truth is that the Tridentine Mass did not come into the existance until a millenia and a half or so after Christ.

So the objective truth is that either other forms of worship are perfectly acceptable to God, or God allowed unacceptable forms of worship to be used for most of human history. There is no reason to believe the later is true. The Old Testament shows that God is quite capable and willing to be very specific about worship when it serves His purpose. Christ made no such effort in the New Testament.

Not a single one of the Apostles would be able to walk into a Tridentine Mass and say, "Yep, that's how we used to do it." The objective truth is that the way the Mass has been celebrated has changed and divereged and changed some more down through the centuries. That doesn't make them all wrong.

Yes, there are wrong ways of doing things. There are many wrong ways of doing things. But there are also many right ways of doing things as well.

Yes, there are priests who don't properly follow the rubrics of the Mass. That is an issue with the priests, not the form of the Mass. They are just as capable of departing from the rubrics of a Tridentine Mass or Eastern Rite Divine Service. None of that makes the NO Mass wrong.

The problem that I and many others here have with some of the griping here is that people are inflating their personal preferences into Divine Mandates. Anything they don't like or approve of somehow becomes a grave moral sin. There is nothing wrong with wanting the rules to be followed. Just don't lose sight of which of the rules are ones created by God, and which ones were created by man.

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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: Whenever the issue of reverence comes up as a topic there are many circular arguments ...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:




Whenever the issue of reverence comes up as a topic there are many circular arguments that can never be resolved using human arguments because none of us can say that we have a direct line to God and His Will. However, my own experience of participation in the modern Church for 45 years in blissful ignorance because I thought that the way it is must be the will of God because it is His Church. I then started to read about the revolution in the Church, the enyclicals of great Popes, the lives of Saints etc and had an enormous change in heart and spirit. That may be considered to be "arrogant" or "elitist". The form of worship I participate in moves me and more and more people are making the move to tradition. One of my greatest regrets is that I did not find this form of worship before my father died and I had him buried in the Modern Church where there is seemingly no Hell or Pergatory and no need to pray for people's souls (a common experience for me and for others I have spoken with).

This morning I was present at a devout Palm Sunday Service. The silent devotion during the blessing of Palms, kneeling to receive the Palms and a kiss as a sign of devotion to Christ was moving and fostered an atmosphere of prayer and an acknowlegement that we are dealing with a non-equal in Christ and we get on our knees for him. During a 5 minute procession to the Church there was not one word uttered and I noticed the young lady in front of me in the procession could barely walk because she had just popped out a child but wanted to walk for Christ rather than to make a hero of herself I presume. When I compare that experience to the Palm Sunday service I attended only a couple of years ago where we were urged to sit down during the reading of the Passion of Christ to maximise our comfort I just felt so privileged to be in a place where Christ was truly honoured today.

Many of the people I know that attend the TLM are very compassionate (they virtually make up 70% of the numbers of 40 Days for Life as an example), generous with there time, the collection plate is overflowing (I used to help with the collection in my former Novus Ordo Church and the plate was light), the numbers are growing and the fruits seem to be positive. Monica also made a good point on this thread that you can actually pray after Mass because people respect the Real Presence of Christ. I am not aware of a local NO Church where this is possible although I accept that they may exist but I have never found such a Church?

This guy has been painted as a heretic and a "bad guy" by the modern Church but read some of the writings of Archbishop Levebvre if you are truly open minded about learning of the alternative views of Catholic tradition. Whether Christ applauds all "personal preferences" is also very debateable. My own brother was fornicating and the first priest he went to happily agreed to celebrate his marriage service without condeming his error in lifestyle. There seems to be absolutely no such thing as error in the modern world, we can all do what we want to and Christ supports it all in his goodness. The alternative view is that Christ the King wants us to honour Him as Our God and Saviour and places demands on us in the way we live and the way we worship.

Does Christ want you to be a Eucharistic Minister, bang a tamborine during Mass, do a touch of liturgical dancing, treat a Church like a meeting place to socialize or does He want you to be solemn and prayerful? All preferences may be equal but there are some who are not willing to take that risk and their preferences are fortunately respected at this point in time although there is some hostility show towards them.

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What fascinates me about this kind of thing is the divorce from reality, the notion that there is a "Modern Catholic Church," and a "Traditional Catholic Church." There is One Holy and Apostolic Church. And what really fascinates me is that all the people who have so much scorn for the NO form clearly have absolutely no conception in the universe of what it is doing for them.

There are for all intents and purposes two types of people going to Tridentine Masses. Those who understand and appreciate the beauty of that form and seek it out because they find the connect to it better. And then there are those who are semi-idolatrous and have raised a particular missal to the same status as Holy Scripture, the schismatics who think that their way is the only way and that they are entitled to tell the rest of the Church to take a hike if they don't get their way.

As a group, both sets are quiet, reverent, well dressed and well behaved at Mass. And they should be applauded for all that.

But here's the kicker, the thing that some (not all, but some) of them can't quite figure out; if the NO Mass went away, guess who would suddenly start showing up at the Tridentine Masses? That's right, the girls in halter tops and the guys who can't bother to shave and come in wearing flip-flops. The priests who take liberties at the NO Masses would suddenly be at the beloved Tridentine Masses taking liberties there. Granted, there would be a certain amount of "out of site, out of mind," since the congregation can't here much of what the priest says. But there would still be plenty of abuses.

The issue here is not that the Tridentine is some kind of wonderful thing that has magic powers to make people be more reverent or that the NO Mass is some horrible parody. The problem is, always has been, and always will be, that human being screw things up on a regular basis.

You folks who are so obsessed with the "superiority" of the Tridentine Mass should thank God every day for the NO Mass; that's what is keeping the unwashed masses out of your Mass (pun intended). By default most people are always going to take the easy way, and going to a Mass in the vernacular is easier than one in Latin. The Church has now, always has had, and always will have large number of people who do not pay attention in Mass, who were never properly catechised, etc. Go re-read what Paul said about how things were before VII. My parents and aunts and uncles confirm every word of it.

The personal preference about what Mass to go to is just that. It is not a moral choice, there is zero reason to believe that God prefers one to the other. Throwing out straw man arguments about how your brother was engaged in this sin or that before he was married doesn't change that. We know that Christ taught fornication was wrong. We also know that Christ never went to a Tridentine Mass, nor did He ever specify exactly what rubrics He wanted. He gave us the "Our Father," and He gave us the Last Supper. We've come up with the rest without a rigid prescription from God. If you doubt that, you should probably not go to a Roman Rite Mass at all, but go find an Eastern Rite parish. Their services are older.

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Mar 24th 2013 new

(Quote) Gabor-19025 said: Does Christ want you to ..., bang a tamborine during Mass, ... or does He wan...
(Quote) Gabor-19025 said:


Does Christ want you to ..., bang a tamborine during Mass, ... or does He want you to be solemn and prayerful? All preferences may be equal but there are some who are not willing to take that risk and their preferences are fortunately respected at this point in time although there is some hostility show towards them.

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It might be a shock for you to learn this, but those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours read the following this very morning:

O praise him with sound of trumpet

praise him with lute and harp

Praise him with timbrel and dance

praise him with strings and pipes

Just to be clear, a tambourine and a timbrel pretty much the same sort of thing. Some translations of the Bible actually use the word "tambourine." They are mentioned throughout the psalms (the above is from Psalm 150) as being used to offer praise and worship to the Lord.

So it would appear that God has zero problem with the things.

Which brings us back to people confusing their personal preferences with God's will...

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Mar 24th 2013 new
(Quote) John-336509 said: Straw man argument. The objective truth is that none of the prophets of the Old T...
(Quote) John-336509 said:



Straw man argument.



The objective truth is that none of the prophets of the Old Testament nor Christ spoke or taught in Latin. The objective truth is that all of Scripture were authored in Hebrew or Greek, not Latin. The objective truth is that the Tridentine Mass did not come into the existance until a millenia and a half or so after Christ.



So the objective truth is that either other forms of worship are perfectly acceptable to God, or God allowed unacceptable forms of worship to be used for most of human history. There is no reason to believe the later is true. The Old Testament shows that God is quite capable and willing to be very specific about worship when it serves His purpose. Christ made no such effort in the New Testament.



Not a single one of the Apostles would be able to walk into a Tridentine Mass and say, "Yep, that's how we used to do it." The objective truth is that the way the Mass has been celebrated has changed and divereged and changed some more down through the centuries. That doesn't make them all wrong.



Yes, there are wrong ways of doing things. There are many wrong ways of doing things. But there are also many right ways of doing things as well.



Yes, there are priests who don't properly follow the rubrics of the Mass. That is an issue with the priests, not the form of the Mass. They are just as capable of departing from the rubrics of a Tridentine Mass or Eastern Rite Divine Service. None of that makes the NO Mass wrong.



The problem that I and many others here have with some of the griping here is that people are inflating their personal preferences into Divine Mandates. Anything they don't like or approve of somehow becomes a grave moral sin. There is nothing wrong with wanting the rules to be followed. Just don't lose sight of which of the rules are ones created by God, and which ones were created by man.

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Latin, in and of itself isn't the point. It's customary to reserve a separate language for prayer so it remains sacred, unchanging and so words with double meanings don't creep in. The Holy Family spoke Aramaic and prayed in Hebrew. I never said the NO was invalid or wrong, just that from what I've personally witnessed it isn't as reverent. Again, I admit that I've heard of very reverent NO Masses, I just haven't attended one. I realize that abuses are possible at both but the VAST majority of NO Masses have completely thrown the rubrics out the window. The abuses that happen at TLM are tiny in comparison and it does have something to do with the language spoken. Isn't it wrong for the priest to face the laity if the rubrics clearly state that he is to be ad orientem? Isn't it wrong for their to be altar girls when they are not actually allowed? There are so many of these kinds of things, and how many people at these Masses actually even realize it?

I didn't say anything was a "grave moral sin" but let's be honest... if I truly believe I'm at Calvary am I showing up to worship Our Lord in jeans and a low cut top and flip flops or dressed as modestly as possible? I agree that a person's intent and state of their soul are what's important but that should be obvious when we take more care in how we dress to go to work or someone's wedding then we do to the most important event of our lives, The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass.

And while it's true that "Christ made no such effort (to be specific about worship) in the New Testament" read what he's told saints time and again about how he feels about the abuses and indifference of how he's treated at Mass. I am willing to admit that I could be wrong about this, but my gut tells me that Saints like St. Teresa, St. Pio, St. Faustina, etc... would be horrified by the way Our Lord is treated and disrespected. The NO is valid, it can be offered perfectly I am sure but I've been Catholic for six years and haven't seen it happen once.
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