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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: oh its true..because i saw it. i went to mass(-i had just converted.this was in the late 80s) one ...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:

oh its true..because i saw it. i went to mass(-i had just converted.this was in the late 80s) one day at noon...and a woman was presiding over a communion ceremony--that was the noon mass. BUT--I was replying to the young lady and her post before me.

Actually--I dont have a big problem w the priest washing the feet of the girls.It made me slightly uncomfortable.....but thats all. He could end up being a great pope.lets wait and see.
--hide--
Thanks for the comments about the foot washing ritual. Out of curiosity, what made you feel uncomfortable about it? That it was different than usual seeing some women participating? Or something else?

We're glad you studied the Catholic faith and decided to join it. It was unfortunate you had to see the iincidents you described. Not a good way to make a good impression on someone who has converted. Take comfort that, by and large, the priests are hard working, diligent, and do the best they can -- many under adverse conditions (shortage of priests, the scandals, extra long hours, etc.).

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: u wouildnt believe some of the freaky stuff going on in some us catholic churches in the late 80s ...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:

u wouildnt believe some of the freaky stuff going on in some us catholic churches in the late 80s and 90s.its been cleaned up a lot......but there were women running communion services,priests presiding over gay commitment ceremonies etc etc etc
--hide--

Same crud has been going on in NZL. Removing tabanacals and statues, removing Christ from the crucifix, removing kneelers, a lot of our Catholic CHurches look like Protestant meeting halls, its digusting. My brother told me his priests in school and during pre-cana told him contraception and abortion were acceptable in certain circumstances, that fornication was justified to determine if you were a "good fit" and that homosexual love was healthy and Christological.

The way I look at it, this nonsense has been going on for years, since Vat II, maybe earlier - NOw, I have no problems with Vat II, I think its a great thing, it's peoples interpretations of its that are the problems.

Anyway, with the homosexual scandals, the paedophiles, the corruption, the money laundering rumours, the pro-abortion politicans claiming they're good Catholics and taking communion, the overt richness of the Papacy [again, if understood in context, no problem - but secular society does'n't give Catholicism a lot of face time to explain context], nuns okaying abortions, nuns dolling out contraceptives to prostititutes, not teaching about hell, the deminishing lines outside confession, that more and more Catholics are viewing the Eucharist in a protestant "its a symbol" way, that Catholic schools are hot beds of sex and atheism [at least here], scandal after filthy scandal, disobidence in grave matters, failure to teach the faith...

Frankly, I think there are BIGGER issues the Church needs to address than whether Papa Francis washes the feet of little girls.

If in two years, the Pope allows ordination of women, okay then I'll come back in here and admit I was wrong. And then I'll go join the Orthodox, or become an atheist.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Marian-83994 said: (Quote) Jerry-74383 said: (Quote) Marian-83994 said: <...
(Quote) Marian-83994 said:

Quote:
Jerry-74383 said:

Quote:
Marian-83994 said:

Personally I do not see this as connected to liturgy and the priesthood. Maybe I am missing this, But I know that our current pope also washed the feet of some HIV positive persons. That does not mean our liturgy must have HIV positive people


The liturgical rubrics say nothing about the health status of those whose feet are washed; they do, however, clearly state they must be men.

I'm not saying the rubrics shouldn't be changed. But unless/until they are, everyone, including the Pope should follow them.




Thank you. I wonder if he sees some higher reason for trying this out? Maybe getting the Press to watch and consider?

--hide--


Hi Marian et alia,

Maybe that's it.

James ☺

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Tom-112790 said: (Quote) Naomi-698107 said: Its a bit of a stretch to think this is going to lead to...
(Quote) Tom-112790 said:
Quote:
Naomi-698107 said:

Its a bit of a stretch to think this is going to lead to women priests. Pope John Paul II under infallibility made it quite clear it weren't going to happen.



I'm no fan of women having their feet washed at this service, but the girls were kids. Children. I think Pope Francis' symbol of humility and openness far outweighs any perceieved offence by not washing the feet of just men.



As for bad examples? There's already plenty of priests disobeying canon law and doctrine. I've never been at a service where it was just men who were only washed, and adults at that.



The ship might have sailed on this tradition a long ways back, at least in my country.



Therefore I'm going to take a cautious "wait and see" attitude.




u wouildnt believe some of the freaky stuff going on in some us catholic churches in the late 80s and 90s.its been cleaned up a lot......but there were women running communion services,priests presiding over gay commitment ceremonies etc etc etc
--hide--


Tom is right. I got pretty wild. It has calmed down now.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: A nice gesture on the Pope's part,but the Apo...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

A nice gesture on the Pope's part,but the Apostles (who were men) were Priest's and Bishops. Having a female in this instance just doesn' fit IMO.


She is a human being, a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, isn't she???

--hide--


This was my initial reaction. theheart

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Mar 29th 2013 new

This whole thread reminds me of the story of Jesus breaking the sabbath laws by "working" to cure a man of a withered hand....

From Mark 3:1-6

A Man with a Withered Hand.1* Again he entered the synagogue.a There was a man there who had a withered hand.2They watched him closely to see if he would cure him on the sabbath so that they might accuse him.3He said to the man with the withered hand, “Come up here before us.”4Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath rather than to do evil, to save life rather than to destroy it?” But they remained silent.5Looking around at them with anger and grieved at their hardness of heart, he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and his hand was restored.b6* The Pharisees went out and immediately took counsel with the Herodians against him to put him to death.

_____________________________
Satirically - Oh horror of horrors. shocked Jesus broke the Sabbath Law by "working" to cure a man of his withered hand. Would it have been better for the man to live even another day with such a deformity. Apparently, Jesus didn't think so. As soon as Jesus performed this miracle, "the Pharisees went out and immediately took counsel with the Herodians against him to put him to death".

__________________________________

Lauren referenced the USCCB >>
www.usccb.org

An answer to the following question (to USCCB)..... "My parish liturgy committee has decided to allow both men and women to take part in the washing of the feet at the liturgy on Holy Thursday. I have always heard that only men may have their feet washed. Which does the Church allow?"

In the USCCB answer, the rubric for Holy Thursday, was stated. I will omit it here for brevity, and quote just two points of the USCCB answer that was given (with certain parts in bold (my emphasis):


"2) Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the "Teacher and Lord" who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service."


"3) While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men ("viri selecti"), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, "who came to serve and not to be served," that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.?

__________________________________


It seems to me that in an effort to fully scrutinize and find potential fault with any out-of-the-ordinary or unconventional practices of the new Pope Francis, perhaps the larger lesson of Pope Francis is being completely missed. The previous popes washing the feet of priests or lay men were emphasizing "fraternal charity", Pope Francis, by washing the feet of inmates, men and women, believers and non-believers, is emphasising the "humble service" As the USCCB reference notes ".... the practice (Holy Thursday foot washing) had fallen into disuse for a long time in parish celebrations, it was restored in 1955 by Pope Pius XII". It terms of church history, this practice was only restored in the very recent history (w/in the last 58 years).


Pope Francis's emphasis of "humble service" fits right in with his homily to the 1600 priest in St. Peter's Basilica earlier in the day. See full text of his homily at www.indcatholicnews.com .


Just one of the paragraphs from Francis's homily.... "We need to “go out”, then, in order to experience our own anointing, its power and its redemptive efficacy: to the “outskirts” where there is suffering, bloodshed, blindness that longs for sight, and prisoners in thrall to many evil masters. It is not in soul-searching or constant introspection that we encounter the Lord: self-help courses can be useful in life, but to live by going from one course to another, from one method to another, leads us to become pelagians and to minimize the power of grace, which comes alive and flourishes to the extent that we, in faith, go out and give ourselves and the Gospel to others, giving what little ointment we have to those who have nothing, nothing at all."

Less skepticism of Pope Francis, and more prayer for him would do wonders. Why is the first assumption so often that he has "gone off the rails" rather than thinking... What is he trying to teach us? What can we learn from his example?


A little long-winded, but these are just my thoughts. Praying


Ed


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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) ED-20630 said: This whole thread reminds me of the story of Jesus breaking the sabbath laws by "working" t...
(Quote) ED-20630 said:

This whole thread reminds me of the story of Jesus breaking the sabbath laws by "working" to cure a man of a withered hand....

From Mark 3:1-6

A Man with a Withered Hand.1* Again he entered the synagogue.a There was a man there who had a withered hand.2They watched him closely to see if he would cure him on the sabbath so that they might accuse him.3He said to the man with the withered hand, “Come up here before us.”4Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath rather than to do evil, to save life rather than to destroy it?” But they remained silent.5Looking around at them with anger and grieved at their hardness of heart, he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out and his hand was restored.b6* The Pharisees went out and immediately took counsel with the Herodians against him to put him to death.

_____________________________
Satirically - Oh horror of horrors. Jesus broke the Sabbath Law by "working" to cure a man of his withered hand. Would it have been better for the man to live even another day with such a deformity. Apparently, Jesus didn't think so. As soon as Jesus performed this miracle, "the Pharisees went out and immediately took counsel with the Herodians against him to put him to death".

__________________________________

Lauren referenced the USCCB >>
www.usccb.org

An answer to the following question (to USCCB)..... "My parish liturgy committee has decided to allow both men and women to take part in the washing of the feet at the liturgy on Holy Thursday. I have always heard that only men may have their feet washed. Which does the Church allow?"

In the USCCB answer, the rubric for Holy Thursday, was stated. I will omit it here for brevity, and quote just two points of the USCCB answer that was given (with certain parts in bold (my emphasis):


"2) Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the "Teacher and Lord" who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service."


"3) While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men ("viri selecti"), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, "who came to serve and not to be served," that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.?

__________________________________


It seems to me that in an effort to fully scrutinize and find potential fault with any out-of-the-ordinary or unconventional practices of the new Pope Francis, perhaps the larger lesson of Pope Francis is being completely missed. The previous popes washing the feet of priests or lay men were emphasizing "fraternal charity", Pope Francis, by washing the feet of inmates, men and women, believers and non-believers, is emphasising the "humble service" As the USCCB reference notes ".... the practice (Holy Thursday foot washing) had fallen into disuse for a long time in parish celebrations, it was restored in 1955 by Pope Pius XII". It terms of church history, this practice was only restored in the very recent history (w/in the last 58 years).


Pope Francis's emphasis of "humble service" fits right in with his homily to the 1600 priest in St. Peter's Basilica earlier in the day. See full text of his homily at www.indcatholicnews.com .


Just one of the paragraphs from Francis's homily.... "We need to “go out”, then, in order to experience our own anointing, its power and its redemptive efficacy: to the “outskirts” where there is suffering, bloodshed, blindness that longs for sight, and prisoners in thrall to many evil masters. It is not in soul-searching or constant introspection that we encounter the Lord: self-help courses can be useful in life, but to live by going from one course to another, from one method to another, leads us to become pelagians and to minimize the power of grace, which comes alive and flourishes to the extent that we, in faith, go out and give ourselves and the Gospel to others, giving what little ointment we have to those who have nothing, nothing at all."

Less skepticism of Pope Francis, and more prayer for him would do wonders. Why is the first assumption so often that he has "gone off the rails" rather than thinking... What is he trying to teach us? What can we learn from his example?


A little long-winded, but these are just my thoughts.


Ed


--hide--

Ed I do think that the natural, seemingly just and charitable reaction is yours and it was indeed also mine and I expect most of our initial reactions as well. None of us want to be the law abiders who ignore the humanitarian aspect of Church which would indeed be a mistake and a misguided and way of thinking. However, when I thought about it deeper I went shocked. He is saying something!!!!

You bring up good points but should remember that when Jesus disregarded certain laws it was to bring about a change as he was bringing about the new law which was his purpose. While he did not seek to disregard the old law but to bring it to a new place, his actions were all symbolic. From his submission to certain laws and his choosing to bend and or break others, they all had theological implications for where the future Church was going. He was saying something!!!!

It is that precise point that is the source of concern and highlights the need for intense prayer not just for the pontiff but for us as Church. Lynea hits my exact concerns as I too see it as a symbolic gesture due to the day on which it was done and the two vital and core institutions of the Church that were instituted on this day. He is saying something!!!! If we as lay people are seeing it as such I am sure that Pope Francis and his advisers can figure it out with their obviously superior grasp on theology and canon law. So what does that mean for the Church and what change are they symbolizing? He is saying something!!!! That is the true concern in conjunction with the precedence of the disregarding of liturgical rubrics.

I will be first to admit that it has been done in the past by many priests including my parish priests. I have even allowed my daughter to get her feet washed ( shame on me as at the time I justified it by saying she wants to do it and what harm is being done as it is on the parish level and they will wash other ladies feet as well embarassed ). What was concerning to me was not the seemingly charitable and humanitarian gesture but what it might be symbolizing. He is saying something!!!! The Church is a church of symbolism. From the name the Pope chooses to his first actions which are mostly very well thought out and crafted by the pontiff and his advisers who are all theological and canonical geniuses. This was planned. He is saying something!!!! Therefore the great unknown still is WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??? Trust me it means something; especially on HOLY THURSDAY.

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: A nice gesture on the Pope's part,but the Apo...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said:

A nice gesture on the Pope's part,but the Apostles (who were men) were Priest's and Bishops. Having a female in this instance just doesn' fit IMO.


She is a human being, a member of the Mystical Body of Christ, isn't she???

--hide--
Of course she is.I said it was a nice gesture right.

LOCKED
Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Ray-566531 said: (Quote) Bernard-2709 said: "...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

Quote:
Bernard-2709 said: "A girl among the 12 inmates whose feet will be washed by the Pope"
"Pope Francis, who often prefers to call himself "bishop of Rome" for the little ones, those who suffer, and the poor, will celebrate today the rite of the washing of the feet in the juvenile penitentiary of Casal del Marmo. Among the twelve young inmates whose feet he will wash will also be a girl, perhaps two. "In Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio also admitted girls to the rite. And we proposed today a female presence. In the Vatican, after some resistance, they accepted it," said Father Gaetano Greco, the chaplain of the facility, where the Pontiff will arrive this afternoon."

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com


Original story from La Repubblica:(Italian) www.repubblica.it



Yikes. Such an uproar over this, as if there's aren't more important issues to be resolved in the Church than this. By criticizing the Pope's actions, we are fortifying the opinions of other faiths that Catholics just don't have it together; that the Church is disintegrating; and so on. Our criticism is helping those who would do us harm.

The Vatican has allowed the inclusion of women at the pastoral discretion of a bishop. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. He was free to exercise his discretion. Some link the washing of feet ritual with the apostolic ministry. But, the ritual is primarily a sign of service to others. If you recall, Jesus Himself caused an uproar over some of His actions -- mainly healing people on the Sabbath. The point He was trying to make was that there is a greater good involved, as compared to the rules of the time. Isn't that what Pope Francis showed by his actions?

The USCCB has acknowledged and accepted the inclusion of women in the washing of feet ritual. Their interpretation is that the act is one of humility and service.Obviously this applies only to the US, but is an indication that the rule is outdated.

What's interesting is that the washing of feet isn't required by the rubrics. It appears that the rule has been in existence for some time, but hasn't been strictly followed, even by the Vatican. Although Church rules are supposed to be in a higher level, we can perhaps compare it's laws with those of governments -- many are outdated, and not enforced.

A question to ponder: Do the rubrics exist to serve the Gospels, or do the Gospels exist to serve the rubrics? Which accomplishes the greater good?

--hide--
Thanks to Jerry for the link.

In the Light of the Law A Canon Lawyer's Blog/ Edward Peters, JD, JCD, Ref. Sig. Ap.

Popes, like dads, don’t have a choice in the matter

"Pope and dads set examples whether they want to or not. If I have dessert despite not having finished my supper, my kids do not experience that family rule as something presumably oriented to their welfare, but rather, as an imposition to be borne until they, too, are old enough to make and break the rules. Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?"

"As a matter of substance, I have long questioned the cogency of arguments that the Mandatum rite should be limited to adult males (a point lost on Michael Sean Winters in his recent nutty over a Mandatum-related post by Fr. Z that linked to my writings on the subject). But I have never doubted that liturgical law expressly limits participation in that rite to adult males, and I have consistently called on Catholics, clerics and laity alike, to observe this pontifically-promulgated law in service to the unity (dare I say, the catholicity) of liturgy (c. 837). Pope Francis’ action today renders these arguments moot. Not wrong, mind. Moot.

"By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive, nor does he—to anticipate an obvious question—achieve the abrogation of a law which, as it happens, I would not mind seeing abrogated. What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example at Supper time."

"We’re not talking here about, say, eschewing papal apartments or limousines or fancy footwear. None of those matters were the objects of law, let alone of laws that bind countless others. (Personally, I find Francis’ actions in these areas inspiring although, granted, I do not have to deal with complications for others being caused by the pope’s simplicity)."

"Rather, re the Mandatum rite, we’re talking about a clear, unambiguous, reasonable (if not entirely compelling or suitable) liturgical provision, compliance with which has cost many faithful pastors undeserved ill-will from many quarters, and contempt for which has served mostly as a ‘sacrament of disregard’ for Roman rules on a variety of other matters. Today, whether he wanted to, or not, Francis set the Catholic world an example, about solidarity with outcasts, certainly, and about regard for liturgy."

"A final thought: we live in antinomian times. One of the odd things about antinomianism (a condition that, by the way, does not always imply ill-will in its adherents though it usually implies a lack of understanding on their part) is that antinomianism makes reform of law not easier but harder: why bother undertaking the necessary but difficult reform of law when it’s easier simply to ignore it?"

"It’s a question with reverberations well beyond those of a foot-washing rite."

canonlawblog.wordpress.com

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Mar 29th 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Thanks to Jerry for the link. In the Light of the Law A Canon Law...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Thanks to Jerry for the link.

In the Light of the Law A Canon Lawyer's Blog/ Edward Peters, JD, JCD, Ref. Sig. Ap.

Popes, like dads, don’t have a choice in the matter

"Pope and dads set examples whether they want to or not. If I have dessert despite not having finished my supper, my kids do not experience that family rule as something presumably oriented to their welfare, but rather, as an imposition to be borne until they, too, are old enough to make and break the rules. Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?"

"As a matter of substance, I have long questioned the cogency of arguments that the Mandatum rite should be limited to adult males (a point lost on Michael Sean Winters in his recent nutty over a Mandatum-related post by Fr. Z that linked to my writings on the subject). But I have never doubted that liturgical law expressly limits participation in that rite to adult males, and I have consistently called on Catholics, clerics and laity alike, to observe this pontifically-promulgated law in service to the unity (dare I say, the catholicity) of liturgy (c. 837). Pope Francis’ action today renders these arguments moot. Not wrong, mind. Moot.

"By disregarding his own law in this matter, Francis violates, of course, no divine directive, nor does he—to anticipate an obvious question—achieve the abrogation of a law which, as it happens, I would not mind seeing abrogated. What he does do, I fear, is set a questionable example at Supper time."

"We’re not talking here about, say, eschewing papal apartments or limousines or fancy footwear. None of those matters were the objects of law, let alone of laws that bind countless others. (Personally, I find Francis’ actions in these areas inspiring although, granted, I do not have to deal with complications for others being caused by the pope’s simplicity)."

"Rather, re the Mandatum rite, we’re talking about a clear, unambiguous, reasonable (if not entirely compelling or suitable) liturgical provision, compliance with which has cost many faithful pastors undeserved ill-will from many quarters, and contempt for which has served mostly as a ‘sacrament of disregard’ for Roman rules on a variety of other matters. Today, whether he wanted to, or not, Francis set the Catholic world an example, about solidarity with outcasts, certainly, and about regard for liturgy."

"A final thought: we live in antinomian times. One of the odd things about antinomianism (a condition that, by the way, does not always imply ill-will in its adherents though it usually implies a lack of understanding on their part) is that antinomianism makes reform of law not easier but harder: why bother undertaking the necessary but difficult reform of law when it’s easier simply to ignore it?"

"It’s a question with reverberations well beyond those of a foot-washing rite."

canonlawblog.wordpress.com

--hide--
This treatise doesn't address the more important issues facing the Church. I believe that attacking the Pope over this will bring about more criticism from others. They will easily interpret this as Catholics fighting among themselves. It will not bring about new friends, but will fortify the Church's enemies.

There are bigger dragons to slay, wouldn't you agree?

Also, it doesn't mention that this rubric has gone out of fashion as far back as the 1950's. It's outdated. Now that it's been brought to the forefront, it will likely be changed. You are, no doubt, aware that permission can be granted by a bishop for exceptions, and that the pope serves as the Bishop of Rome. He can give himself permission.

What kind of example are we setting by attacking a humble man wanting to be of service. The mark of a true leader is that he/she is actually a servant to the people. I interpret his actions to reflect this. On Good Friday, it would serve us well to reflect upon the life of Jesus and how He served His flock -- to the ultimate degree.

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