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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

Apr 2nd 2013 new

William your second paragraph summed up exactly what I was trying to say. It's a slippery slope with the "faithful" (or not so faithful as the case may be), and that is precisely the concern.

It's not a consistent "ethic" as it were....the Church (i.e. the Pope) says there is this "rule" about the mandatum, but doesn't follow it, so why should I follow it's "rule" about no artificial birth control? While we know it's apples and oranges, and not the same thing, that is the "logic" that sets in.

It might seem small, but everything he does and says is magnified (as it should be).

Apr 2nd 2013 new

Hi Cindy,
I am with you here. We must not become "more Catholic than the Pope!" And we must be careful of judging. He was emulating Jesus and if his gets all

these ultra right Catholics hot and bothered, maybe they should look in the mirror, or more importantly, read Sacred Scripture. Doesn't it say

"Whatsoever you do to the least of My brethern, that you do unto Me". Matthew 25

Apr 2nd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: The point Christ was making in the washing of the feet had noithing directly to do with the esta...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



The point Christ was making in the washing of the feet had noithing directly to do with the establishment of the Eucharist.



Rather it had to do with His establishment of the priesthood. And His point was, that as Priests it was there duty to serve, not to be served. And that is the point of the ritual today as it has been since Christ first did it.

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I understand the point that Jesus was making. But he made it a point to only include the men. He had plenty of women followers and didn't wash their feet. Everything Christ did was for us and we should follow his examples.
Apr 2nd 2013 new

(Quote) Lynn-189934 said: I like Vatican II, is what it means. Face value. There is room within Vatican II for ...
(Quote) Lynn-189934 said:


I like Vatican II, is what it means. Face value. There is room within Vatican II for traditionalists (as long as they are still aligned) in my view point, and I am liking Pope Francis.

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You seem to be suggesting here that the Second Vatican Council is a rule unto itself, though it clearly is not, even by admission of the Holy Father Pope Paul VI who promulgated it. Those documents released by the Second Vatican Council, since not binding upon the assent of faith, must be understood and assimilated into the Christian life only in the light of infallible teaching.

It would be better to say that in conformity with all which is bound authoritatively upon the faithful, there is room in Holy Mother Church for traditionalists.

The Second Vatican Council is not a make-or-break point in regard to the supernatural virtue of faith (it's a work of the ordinary Magisterium), and though to reject any of its teachings without good reason would be grave sin, it does not cast one outside the Church like obstinately rejecting what Holy Mother Church has declared to be divinely revealed whether in her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Monica-730858 said: I was really confused by the "I trust the Holy Spirit" comment. Because the Pope does...
(Quote) Monica-730858 said:

I was really confused by the "I trust the Holy Spirit" comment. Because the Pope does something means that it's the will of the Holy Spirit? Popes makes mistakes all of the time, just like the rest of us. I don't agree with Popes, Cardinals, Bishops or Priests washing women or girls' feet on Holy Thursday for the simple fact that Jesus didn't. What was happening on Holy Thursday? The institution of the Eucharist. Jesus was teaching his future Bishops. Jesus saw everything that would happen throughout all of time and history, including this discussion. If he wanted women included in this tradition he would have been the first to wash their feet. NOTHING Christ did was without significance. I strongly recommend that everyone get a copy of "A Catechism of Modernism." Just because things are changing doesn't mean it's a good thing.
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Stick to your guns Monica.You are correct.The worst offenders are the ones who are older and grew up with the old ways.They have abandoned much of what they were taught.All in some cases.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) William-607613 said: Paul,Your scholarship in this area is well past mine, so for the sake of th...
(Quote) William-607613 said:




Paul,

Your scholarship in this area is well past mine, so for the sake of this post I will assume that what you are saying is true.

I am sure you would concede that the Church is facing no small crisis today with Catholics everywhere (but particularly in the West) shrugging their shoulders and doing whatever they want, despite what the Church teaches; this includes clergy, who routinely adjust the rubrics of the Mass to suit their whim or the whims of the parishioners.

Would you not concede that if the Pope was able to do this as you say, it would have been far better for the Vatican to release a prepared statement either beforehand or immediately upon completion of the Mass with the warning that the Pope's actions are not to be taken as permission for priests and bishops everywhere to do the same? Must these issues always fall on the shoulders of concerned lay people?

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There is no doubt that the Church is, ON A HUMAN LEVEL, in deep crisis. No crisis exists in the theological sense.

Individual Catholics and clergy, at all levels, who do whatever they please is a personal failure of their own. One can argue that the clergy has not lead and we can find all kinds of evidence of that. But, and it is a very big but, it is the personal responsibility of each and everyone of us to study and deepen our faith.

The Church has not changed any Dogmas, or Doctrines. They are easily available to anyone who makes a minimal expenditure of effort, time and money. It also comes from developing a personal prayer life, regular attendence at Mass and reception of the Sacremants of the Eucharist and Confession.

The Mass exodus of priests and religious from their consecrated lives, was a personal failure of each and everyone of them. Some may even have had very legitimate reasons for doing so. Nevertheless it was a personal failure of their vocation, not of the Church.

Here in the States, Bishops became so deperate at the exodus that they accepted men thgat they would not have ever considered 10 yeasrs earlier. So they reaped what they sowed, draft dodgers, homosexual predaters and ill trained priests. But that is the failure of the indivduals Bishops seminary rectors, etc.

In other words, the humans making up the human structure of the Church failed, not the Church. It is an important distinction.

I personally do not care for the Novus Ordo. But I have no problem immersing myself in what the Mass is and praying the Mass while ignoring all the BS that would otherwise grate on my nerves. The Mass is still the Mass and that is what I take part in.

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: There is no doubt that the Church is, ON A HUMAN LEVEL, in deep crisis. No crisis exists ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

There is no doubt that the Church is, ON A HUMAN LEVEL, in deep crisis. No crisis exists in the theological sense.

Individual Catholics and clergy, at all levels, who do whatever they please is a personal failure of their own. One can argue that the clergy has not lead and we can find all kinds of evidence of that. But, and it is a very big but, it is the personal responsibility of each and everyone of us to study and deepen our faith.

The Church has not changed any Dogmas, or Doctrines. They are easily available to anyone who makes a minimal expenditure of effort, time and money. It also comes from developing a personal prayer life, regular attendence at Mass and reception of the Sacremants of the Eucharist and Confession.

The Mass exodus of priests and religious from their consecrated lives, was a personal failure of each and everyone of them. Some may even have had very legitimate reasons for doing so. Nevertheless it was a personal failure of their vocation, not of the Church.

Here in the States, Bishops became so deperate at the exodus that they accepted men thgat they would not have ever considered 10 yeasrs earlier. So they reaped what they sowed, draft dodgers, homosexual predaters and ill trained priests. But that is the failure of the indivduals Bishops seminary rectors, etc.

In other words, the humans making up the human structure of the Church failed, not the Church. It is an important distinction.

I personally do not care for the Novus Ordo. But I have no problem immersing myself in what the Mass is and praying the Mass while ignoring all the BS that would otherwise grate on my nerves. The Mass is still the Mass and that is what I take part in.

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Very good Paul.Isn't there a Latin Mass in your area?

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: Very good Paul.Isn't there a Latin Mass in your area?
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

Very good Paul.Isn't there a Latin Mass in your area?

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Not in a reasonable distance. I might prefer it, but I don't need it. I need the Mass and I have the Mass. What part of that don't you understand?

Apr 3rd 2013 new

Paul,


Your perspective, like Naomi's on the first page, is always instructive. Thanks.


Can I be you when I grow up?

--Chris

Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Individual Catholics and clergy, at all levels, who do whatever they please is a ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:

Individual Catholics and clergy, at all levels, who do whatever they please is a personal failure of their own. One can argue that the clergy has not lead and we can find all kinds of evidence of that. But, and it is a very big but, it is the personal responsibility of each and everyone of us to study and deepen our faith.

--hide--




Paul,

All of this is true but every institution in the world has administrative procedures in place for policing its own; that these procedures are necessary to maintain order in that institution (government, business, military, you name it) is something we all know and agree on. We don't all know the rules and the regulations we are supposed to follow; it has always been the role of the "graybeards" to guide us in the right direction. (We don't ask much of the clergy in this day and age, Paul. We really don't.)

In this situation, you have the laity pointing out to the hierarchy that something is amiss. And the laity has been doing this for some fifty years.


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