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This room is for discussion for anyone who adheres to the Extraordinary form of the mass and any issues related to the practices of Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Saint Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Charles-512043 said: Even then-Cardinal Ratzinger didn't think the Novus Ordo was a pr...
(Quote) Charles-512043 said:

Even then-Cardinal Ratzinger didn't think the Novus Ordo was a product of organic development. Here's a quote from his preface to Klaus Gamber's book on the new liturgy:

"What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it - as in a manufacturing process - with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product."

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Thanks for the Quote Charles.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

"The Order of Mass as found in the 1570 Missal of St. Pius [1566-1572], apart from minor additions and amplifications, corresponds very closely with the order established by St. Gregory( St. Gregory the Great became Pope in 590 and reigned until 604.). It is also to this great Pope that we owe, to a large extent, the codification of the incomparable chant that bears his name.(Gregorian Chant)"

A Short History of the Roman Mass Michael Davies

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

" In 1969, before Paul VI released the New Liturgy, Vatican Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci sent Pope Paul VI a letter that accompanied a brief Critical Study of the New Mass. Here the Cardinals said the New Mass “represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent,” and would produce an agonizing crisis of conscience for numerous priests."

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

LETTER ON NOVUS ORDO MISSAE Cardinal Ottaviani

Rome, September 25th, 1969

Most Holy Father,

Having carefully examined, and presented for the scrutiny of others, the Novus Ordo Missae prepared by the experts of the Consilium ad exequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia, and after lengthy prayer and reflection, we feel it to be our bounder duty in the sight of God and towards Your Holiness, to put before you the following considerations:

1. The accompanying critical study of the Novus Ordo Missae, the work of a group of theologians, liturgists and pastors of souls, shows quite clearly in spite of its brevity that if we consider the innovations implied or taken for granted which may of course be evaluated in different ways, the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent. The "canons" of the rite definitively fixed at that time provided an insurmountable barrier to any; heresy directed against the integrity of the Mystery.

2. The pastoral reasons adduced to support such a grave break with tradition, even if such reasons could be regarded as holding good in the face of doctrinal considerations, do not seem to us sufficient. The innovations in the Novus Ordo and the fact that all that is of perennial value finds only a minor place, if it subsists at all, could well turn into a certainty the suspicions already prevalent, alas, in many circles, that truths which have always been believed by the Christian people, can be changed or ignored without infidelity to that sacred deposit of doctrine to which the Catholic faith is bound for ever. Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful who are already showing signs of restiveness and of an indubitable lessening of faith.

Amongst the best of the clergy the practical result is an agonizing crisis of conscience of which innumerable instances come to our notice daily.

3. We are certain that these considerations, which can only reach Your Holiness by the living voice of both shepherds and flock, cannot but find an echo in Your paternal heart, always so profoundly solicitous for the spiritual needs of the children of the Church. It has always been the case that when a law meant for the good of subjects proves to be on the contrary harmful, those subjects have the right, nay the duty of asking with filial trust for the abrogation of that law.

Therefore we most earnestly beseech Your Holiness, at a time of such painful divisions and ever-increasing perils for the purity of the Faith and the unity of the Church, lamented by You our common Father, not to deprive us of the possibility of continuing to have recourse to the fruitful integrity of that Missale Romanum of St. Pius V. so highly praised by Your Holiness and so deeply loved and venerated by the whole Catholic world.www.ewtn.com

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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said: "The Order of Mass as found in...
(Quote) Bernard-2709 said:

"The Order of Mass as found in the 1570 Missal of St. Pius [1566-1572], apart from minor additions and amplifications, corresponds very closely with the order established by St. Gregory( St. Gregory the Great became Pope in 590 and reigned until 604.). It is also to this great Pope that we owe, to a large extent, the codification of the incomparable chant that bears his name.(Gregorian Chant)"



A Short History of the Roman Mass Michael Davies

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Anyone who wants to see the orders of Mass prior to Trent can look in this Wikipedia article and see that the Ordinaries of the Mass were more or less the same as the 1570 Missal unlike the Novus Ordo.

en.wikipedia.org

The Mass of 1570 would be more recognizable as Catholic to a person who lived in the year 1000 than the Mass today.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: Labeling the Novus as sythetic and not organic is utter nonsense. It is no more s...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



Labeling the Novus as sythetic and not organic is utter nonsense.



It is no more synthetic than any other form of the Mass.



So what if a Committee put it together? Do you honestly believe that the form of the Mass celebrated in the East just sprang whole and entire in John C's brain, zapped there by thye Holy Spirit? Or because he was the one to whom it is attributed that it is no more or less synthetic? Do you think that the TLM was kind of a spontaneous development? It too, to use yoiur terms, was a synthetic development by a committee.



Yes, the "Spirit of Vatican II" did a lot of damage. For the simple reason that those who pushed it had not read the documents any more than the people who today condemn VII as an abomination have read them.



AS far as the stumbling block to unity with the East, it still remains, mainly, the position of the Pope. The committees that have been meeting for years have already agreed that no theological stumbling blocks exist to untity and that the main issue is the Papacy. The Novus can be no problem because untity no more requires them to use it than the Eastern Catholics are required to use it.



Any one claiming otherwise, is looking for excuses, not dealing in reality.



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It's obvious that you don't know what you are talking about regarding the Orthodox. They view the Novus Ordo as another example of how Rome has lost the pre-schism faith.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new
The Traditional Roman rite has a lineage in common with the Eastern rites that isn't shared by the Novus Ordo. Most of the traditional rite's prayers are so ancient that they predate the schism of 1054.
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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The Traditional Roman rite has a lineage in common with the Eastern rites that isn't shared by the No...
(Quote) John-220051 said: The Traditional Roman rite has a lineage in common with the Eastern rites that isn't shared by the Novus Ordo. Most of the traditional rite's prayers are so ancient that they predate the schism of 1054.
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Another difference that one can point out is regarding the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon which was codified as part of the Western liturgy in 1571 was also given the distinction by the Council of Trent to be entirely without error.

The Roman Canon from the 1969 Missal, being modified, does not enjoy that same distinction. I'm not claiming that there are errors in the new Roman Canon (i.e., Eucharistic Prayer I), but only that it is possible for the Canon to contain error.

That taken alone seems to make it most unwise to depart from the traditional Latin Rite liturgy...though, add in all the other malignant effects of the Missa Paulina, and one wonders why the Holy Father even took it upon himself to change things.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) John-220051 said: The Traditional Roman rite has a lineage in common with the Eastern rites that isn't shared by the No...
(Quote) John-220051 said: The Traditional Roman rite has a lineage in common with the Eastern rites that isn't shared by the Novus Ordo. Most of the traditional rite's prayers are so ancient that they predate the schism of 1054.
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Oh for God's sake. Sit down with a missal for the Latin Mass and for the Novus Ordo and compare them step by step and you will find that there is no necessary difference between the 2. The Novus has more readings and more allowable variations for the Eucharistic prayers. But each part of the Mass does the same thing now as it did then. Indivudla prayers may be different but they accomplish the same thing.

Everything being complained about has nothing to do with Dogma or Doctrine but only discipline and practice which are changable at any time by the Church.

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Apr 3rd 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: Another difference that one can point out is regarding the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



Another difference that one can point out is regarding the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon which was codified as part of the Western liturgy in 1571 was also given the distinction by the Council of Trent to be entirely without error.

The Roman Canon from the 1969 Missal, being modified, does not enjoy that same distinction. I'm not claiming that there are errors in the new Roman Canon (i.e., Eucharistic Prayer I), but only that it is possible for the Canon to contain error.

That taken alone seems to make it most unwise to depart from the traditional Latin Rite liturgy...though, add in all the other malignant effects of the Missa Paulina, and one wonders why the Holy Father even took it upon himself to change things.

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The fact that a church Council gave its stamp of approval tonthe 1571 liturgy and not to this one is a differnce with no meaning. The Novus Ordo was approved and Promulgated by the Pope. It needs no other approval since that is the highest approval possible. No Counciler pronouncement has any meaning without the Poipe'sapproval. Ergo the Pope approved it in 1571 when her approved the Counciler documents and a Pope apporved the 1969 missal when he approved and promulgated it.

Stop trying to play the law game. Look to the reality behind the Law.

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