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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Naomi-698107 said: The Bible is a Catholic book. Protestantism is a heresy. That's not to say al...
(Quote) Naomi-698107 said:

The Bible is a Catholic book.

Protestantism is a heresy. That's not to say all Protestants are heretics, most just don't know any better.

A great deal of modern catholics also have very little to be proud of in terms of faithfulness to the faith.

As it stands, I think we should be reunited against bigger enemies, ie. atheism, redefining marriage to accomodate same sex couples, abortion, et cetera.

An atheist told me once, how could he be a Christian when Christians couldn't even agree? I told him Catholicism was the only safe bet.

We were here first.

--hide--




Jesus Christ founded Christianity; and this division was created by those leaving the faith as well as by Catholicism. Had we been living our faith as we were meant to, those groups which fell away would have returned centuries ago. As it is, if it weren't for different Protestant denominations, many would have no Christian fellowship at all - which has been God's intention always - we were not created to live in isolation. It is absolutely impossible to keep our faith without support of those also believing it - and our church simply couldn't give a crap about how many fall away. It's been going on my entire life, and they know it. Our clerics would rather 'annul' a marriage than help the right people find one another in the first place, it makes their job easier. And they'd rather see young people fall away from their faith (most likely to atheism) than talk about the hard topics like SEX. Wouldn't it have been better for them to have been brought up Protestant?

I'm not attacking our faith, its beliefs are correct, it's practice is what's been slowly killing it and the faith of so many. I have responded here for the most part as I know many very good Christians who are Protestants of different denominations and they live by their faith in Christ; socialize with others in their faith; are involved in many things. This isn't just seniors either! There's all sorts of stuff for young people and members of all ages and it is not a rarity to see their Christian young people practicing morality (no sex until marriage); whereas if we can even find an adult social group we have to hit off the stalkers/mashers with a stick.

Being here first doesn't win the argument, as they are Christians too. Not only that; how can we say we are His followers if we don't live His teachings; but only talk them? I thought I'd have done several missionary trips by now (would have had I been Protestant. I'd also have been married; and could have converted later.) A lot of Protestants know what they believe in; they also can see what we believe in and likely can't understand why we think Christ's only teaching was the Last Supper; and if we truly believe in Him as they've read we do - that we can have the scandals we do and have so many of our members fall away annually.

Actions have and will always speak louder than words.




Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said: What beyond beying human and baptized even unites those who profess to be Catholic to t...
(Quote) Chelsea-743484 said:



What beyond beying human and baptized even unites those who profess to be Catholic to those who profess to be protestant?

--hide--

I guess only silly, things like the fact that both Catholics and Protestants believe that Christ is the Son of God sent to redeem humanity, or there is that unimportant acceptance of the New Testament as Holy Scripture. Of course we all pray that "Our Father" thing, but that can't matter because it was given to us by that Jesus guy, and he was't even important enough to make your list of things that unite us...

Apr 9th 2013 new

May the Holy Spirit come among this discussion, join us in compassion and love, and lead us to His truth.

--+--

I admit, I'm a cradle Catholic. I embrace the dogma of Mother Church and I love her doctrines. But I suspect that, if I had been adopted by a Lutheran family, or a Methodist family, I would have likely grown up with protestant teachings and a protestant outlook.

I'd be denied the grace of many sacraments, but I would hope that the Spirit would still move my heart to love God and keep His commands.


We Catholics have more means at our disposal for personal grace, a deeper well of tradtion (and, for that matter, Tradition) to inform our doctrine, and the prayers of the Communion of Saints to support us on our journey. Perhaps more is expected of us in return.

The Apostles preached one historical fact -- the Resurrection -- and one theological fact -- its Redemptive power. A person who embraces those, and is charged to pray, to reform his or her life, to perform acts of mercy, to identify himself or herself as Christian, is my brother or sister. If they disagree with me about the authority of apostolic succession, or whether the Spirit procedes from the Father and the Son or just the Father, or the role of Mary in God's continuing plan, or a host of other things; then it is our duty to seek the truth together.

Let us fall into neither error: o overlook the fellowship of a Christian because we disagree with his or her Protestant beliefs, nor to overlook his or her Protestantism because we don't dare risk upsetting our fellowship in Christ.

-- In joy and service,

Chris


(Oh, and hey, let's be careful about the term heretic. It's literally incendiary. A heretic is somebody who speaks in error while stil claiming to speak for the Catholic Church. A Jewish rabbi isn't a heretic; he's a different faith. Neither is a Baptist a heretic; he's a Protestant. He *embraces* his error!)

Apr 9th 2013 new
(Quote) Chris-930705 said: May the Holy Spirit come among this discussion, join us in compassion and love, and lead us to His truth. <...
(Quote) Chris-930705 said:

May the Holy Spirit come among this discussion, join us in compassion and love, and lead us to His truth.



--+--



I admit, I'm a cradle Catholic. I embrace the dogma of Mother Church and I love her doctrines. But I suspect that, if I had been adopted by a Lutheran family, or a Methodist family, I would have likely grown up with protestant teachings and a protestant outlook.



I'd be denied the grace of many sacraments, but I would hope that the Spirit would still move my heart to love God and keep His commands.




We Catholics have more means at our disposal for personal grace, a deeper well of tradtion (and, for that matter, Tradition) to inform our doctrine, and the prayers of the Communion of Saints to support us on our journey. Perhaps more is expected of us in return.



The Apostles preached one historical fact -- the Resurrection -- and one theological fact -- its Redemptive power. A person who embraces those, and is charged to pray, to reform his or her life, to perform acts of mercy, to identify himself or herself as Christian, is my brother or sister. If they disagree with me about the authority of apostolic succession, or whether the Spirit procedes from the Father and the Son or just the Father, or the role of Mary in God's continuing plan, or a host of other things; then it is our duty to seek the truth together.



Let us fall into neither error: o overlook the fellowship of a Christian because we disagree with his or her Protestant beliefs, nor to overlook his or her Protestantism because we don't dare risk upsetting our fellowship in Christ.



-- In joy and service,



Chris




(Oh, and hey, let's be careful about the term heretic. It's literally incendiary. A heretic is somebody who speaks in error while stil claiming to speak for the Catholic Church. A Jewish rabbi isn't a heretic; he's a different faith. Neither is a Baptist a heretic; he's a Protestant. He *embraces* his error!)

--hide--


Wonderfully said Chris. Of course I believe that we as catholics have the fullness of truth.More is expected of us. And certainly more is expected of us than to proclaim non-catholics as non-christians--or to proclaim people of other faiths as spiritually dead.

There are faithful and strong christians who are not catholic.There are people of faith--in God--who are non-christians--who have less knowledge of the fullness of God-but who are still Gods children.

We are to use the great great gift of being catholic to pray for and be patient with the rest of Gods children. We aren't to proclaim them unworthy for heaven even if we are inconvenienced or angered by some of their attacks on our faith.-We explain the catholic position the best we can...and we pray for them and remember our own complete unworthiness at the same time.

And if we dont act out of this humility then we are actually pushing people away from faith--the complete opposite of Gods intention when He gave us the great gift of Himself directly in the eucharist.
Apr 9th 2013 new
(Quote) Paul-302787 said: Acting like brothers and sisters does not mean that we do not admonish our brother or sister when time is n...
(Quote) Paul-302787 said:

Acting like brothers and sisters does not mean that we do not admonish our brother or sister when time is necessary. And I agree, we have to follow in Jesus' footsteps. All of them, even the ones which we would rather ignore.

Jesus said:

"Go therefore, making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the + Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them *all* that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you even unto the end of the age."

Notice He said "All"----not just the ones we would rather ignore, including the Holy Eucharist, the priesthood, sanctity of marriage and of life, etc.
--hide--
"Go and preach, speak only if necessary" said one of the wiser men that understood better than anyone in his time the love of Christ, Saint Francis. I think we can preach, correct and teach more without words or judgements, just with our testimony...
Apr 9th 2013 new

(Quote) Theresa-110510 said: Jesus Christ founded Christianity; and this division was created by those leavi...
(Quote) Theresa-110510 said:





Jesus Christ founded Christianity; and this division was created by those leaving the faith as well as by Catholicism. Had we been living our faith as we were meant to, those groups which fell away would have returned centuries ago. As it is, if it weren't for different Protestant denominations, many would have no Christian fellowship at all - which has been God's intention always - we were not created to live in isolation. It is absolutely impossible to keep our faith without support of those also believing it - and our church simply couldn't give a crap about how many fall away. It's been going on my entire life, and they know it. Our clerics would rather 'annul' a marriage than help the right people find one another in the first place, it makes their job easier. And they'd rather see young people fall away from their faith (most likely to atheism) than talk about the hard topics like SEX. Wouldn't it have been better for them to have been brought up Protestant?

I'm not attacking our faith, its beliefs are correct, it's practice is what's been slowly killing it and the faith of so many. I have responded here for the most part as I know many very good Christians who are Protestants of different denominations and they live by their faith in Christ; socialize with others in their faith; are involved in many things. This isn't just seniors either! There's all sorts of stuff for young people and members of all ages and it is not a rarity to see their Christian young people practicing morality (no sex until marriage); whereas if we can even find an adult social group we have to hit off the stalkers/mashers with a stick.

Being here first doesn't win the argument, as they are Christians too. Not only that; how can we say we are His followers if we don't live His teachings; but only talk them? I thought I'd have done several missionary trips by now (would have had I been Protestant. I'd also have been married; and could have converted later.) A lot of Protestants know what they believe in; they also can see what we believe in and likely can't understand why we think Christ's only teaching was the Last Supper; and if we truly believe in Him as they've read we do - that we can have the scandals we do and have so many of our members fall away annually.

Actions have and will always speak louder than words.




--hide--

The overwhelming problem isn't that the Faith is dying, its that people are turning away from the Faith because its too hard, or they have too easily fallen prey to an easier form of Christainity or blatant secularism.

The Faith can never die. The Catholic Church can never die. Christ said so himself. The word Catholic has been found in literature as early as 60AD, and it was used in such a context that no explanation was given - ie. the meaning had been established. It simply means universal, or "Kata holis - everyone is welcome"; a concept very strange in the Greco-Roman society in which the early Christians were operating.

I think we in the West have fallen prey to viewing the Church as a group of lazy, ill informed clerics who are apathetic towards their vocation. Teh Catholic Church is the largest charitable organisation on the planet. We're doing more than any other Christian, secular or government run group to assist the poor and needy, et cetera.

It boils down to how we choose to view the Church. Yip, its full of corruption and sinners and the usual glorious failings of man, but the foundation is solid.

Christ willed unity, not seperation in denominational division. Christ created ONE Church. He gave us organised religion. To ignore that is to ignore Christ.

God's mercy, however, extends beyond simple divisions caused by the flawed logics of man. I have no doubt that many Protestants have a great love of God and follow Him to the best of their Protestant understanding. We should, however, as Catholics be more inclined to point out the Truth. I know too many "good" Protestants who are just grossly ignorant of the Catholic faith, due in part to anti-Catholic sentiment and generally laziness of mind. We should be more inclined to preach the Truth of the Catholic Faith which Christ gave us.

As Catholics, we know there's more to the story then just accepting Christ. Jesus says so himself in scripture. Not all who proclaim Christ will be saved. We have a duty to inform, and not to shelve missionary work to Protestants in the "too hard basket".

With that said, I still think we need to at least try and keep our dissagreements "in house" and away from the secular eye; so much so we should focus on the atheist and secuarlist who has no love of God, rather than bothering the Protestant who has some love of God - but we can't completely right them off.

Priorities.

Apr 9th 2013 new

If there were not very major (theological) "things" that do unite Catholics and Protestants, then the Catholic Church would not even recognize Protestant baptism (which it does). To my understanding, the Catholic Church recognizes and accepts baptism from most all "Christian" denominations. The only exceptions that immediately come to my mind are the Mormon religion and the Unitarian (Unitarian Universalism) Church, which are very divergent from Catholic teaching (e.g. not even believing in the Trinity, plus many other things). A convert from one of those two religions must be baptized in the Catholic Church upon entering. Converts from the other denominations are not re-baptized. Of course there are very major differences between Catholics and Protestants, but there is also much that we have in common.


We will never win on issues like abortion if we will not cooperate where-ever possible with other Christian denominations.... or for that matter... other like-minded religions on any particular issue of the day. On Tuesdays, I help out for a few hours a the local Interfaith Food Closet. Approximately 10-15 local churches contribute to make this work every single weekday. Shall we instead have Lutheran Mondays, Catholic Tuesdays, Mega-Church Wednesdays, Baptist Thursdays and Mormon Fridays? We would then need another week or two to cover all the other denominations. It really makes a lot more sense to work together on these common goals rather than not associating because of all of our differences.


Just my thoughts.


Ed

Apr 9th 2013 new

Chelsea,


From your prior post, if the only two things that you can find that unite Catholics and Protestants are "being human" and "baptized", then you really aren't trying very hard... at all. Certainly, you can dig much deeper than that.


Ed

Apr 9th 2013 new
(Quote) Ray-566531 said: I'm going to advocate your approach, John. We, as Christians, have much in common. Pope JPII emphasized this ...
(Quote) Ray-566531 said:

I'm going to advocate your approach, John. We, as Christians, have much in common. Pope JPII emphasized this during his papacy. An ecumenical spirit developed after Vatican II. If we emphasize what we have in common, much can be accomplished, as opposed to spending a lot of time bashing each other. If we respect our common ground and unite in that fashion, there is much evil that can be fought. United faith groups have accomplished a great deal in the areas of charity and social justice, whereas, standing alone, they wouldn't have made as much progress.



FB isn't a great place to have a meaningful debate in the first place. There are limits of space that can restrict people to tossing out sound bytes. We can agree to disagree on the doctrinal issues on FB, but a good meaningful dialogue just isn't going to take place there and it's difficult to win people over with just bits and pieces.



And what person likes to be told he/she is wrong -- especially in a public forum? If our purpose is to help unite, there are better ways. FB debates/arguments lend themselves to hostility -- counterproductive to the goal. The "in your face' approach just isn't leading to the results being sought.

--hide--


The biggest problem with a lot of what has passed for ecumenism since Vatican II is that it has minimized doctrinal divisions and sown confusion among the faithful that there is no difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. Just look at the millions of Catholics who have become Protestant or neo-Protestant (Those who have adopted Protestant attitudes while remaining in the Catholic Church) since Vatican II to see the fruits of ecumenism.

The trend of Protestants heading in the other direction has been much smaller.

Social ecumenism on issues we share in common is one thing, but we shouldn't pretend that we share the same faith.

Even Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism says: "The way and method in which the Catholic faith is expressed should never become an obstacle to dialogue with our brethren. It is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety. Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded."
Apr 9th 2013 new

Very interesting issue! I hope I wouldn't hit anyone with anything, especially a bible! I don't see why people can't sit down with a cup of tea and have a discussion. Yes, indeed Christ did often talk with a sense of urgency about matters of faith. But I can't imagine this would be aggressive in any way. And there were also occasions like when He was with the woman at the well. That situation has the feel to me of a gentle conversation over a cup of tea. Somehow evangelization and discussions with other Christians (and beyond) ought to have some humility. The question is, as Pope Benedict put it, echoing St. Benedict perhaps, is 'who seeks God with a sincere heart?' People can be wrong on theological matters but sincere in their seeking.

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