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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Apr 23 new

(Quote) Keith-965841 said: Af After reading most of the comments on here I have to say that I am really disappoin...
(Quote) Keith-965841 said:

Af


After reading most of the comments on here I have to say that I am really disappointed with this thread. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but some of you seem just as closed off as the "fundamentalists" whom you criticize.


With respect to "Anglicans" I would disagree that Catholics who do know their faith and hold to all of the tenets of the Church have little in common with Anglicans as a whole. For one their theology is radically different than ours. Yes there are some outward gestures in their service that are similar, but the Anglican Church is radically liberal now as is much of Lutheranism.


Traditional and conservative Catholics have far more in common with Evangelical Christians than we have with modernist Catholics and they have more in common with us then they do with liberal Protestants.


Finally the priest does NOT interpret everything for us and the Church doesn't even teach that. Yes the Church is the final word but we as Catholics are just as capable of reading scripture and drawing our own conclusions with respect to much of the Bible.


One example would be the creation story. Some Catholics take it just as literal as any fundamentalist and some believe it's very symbolic. The Church does not dogmatically define the creation story or the book of Revelation. Again some Catholics are just as apocalyptic as any dyed in the wool Dispensationlist and others are preterists.

--hide--


Don't confuse Anglican and Episcopalian. The worldwide Anglican communion holds on to traditional Christian tenants and are "conservative". We share much in common. The American Episcopal church...well, they ain't called Epsicopagan for nothing. Pope Benedict established the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter to welcome Anglicans back into the Catholic fold. Several parishes in the US have joined and others are discerning. I attend an Anglican Rite Mass.

Apr 24 new
(Quote) Reena-961146 said: I am so glad we have a Teaching Authority to guide both Lay and Clergy when it comes to scriptu...
(Quote) Reena-961146 said:



I am so glad we have a Teaching Authority to guide both Lay and Clergy when it comes to scripture interpretation.




Here is what the Catechism states on interpreting Scriptures



The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78



112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79



The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80


113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).



114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.





What I like about this is, it teaches us that Scriptures are meant to be read as a whole. So now when I read Scriptures, I keep those three in mind it has helped me a lot - but I also again, am glad that I have a Magesterium to fall back to, to make sure that I'm in line with Her teachings.




I observe amongst my non-Catholic friends that the issue with interpretations do come up a lot. Which interpretation is right etc? I'd like to think I read Scriptures with a Catholic Lens, because we have a Magistereum that is guided by the Holy Spirit.

--hide--


I would never consider myself a "teaching authority" on faith matters, and certainly would not assume that I have sufficient authority to teach a cleric on faith matters!

Your contributions though, as to the slant, for which we Catholics approach The Word, do point to what I am attempting to relay.

I myself, read the bible regularly. I practice lectio divina but I do not presume to understand each scripture completely and correctly, without the influence of a cleric, or a lay person who has extensive experience in Catholic interpretations of the scripture. Lectio Devina includes prayer, and perhaps this may invoke some grace toward a personal understanding of what is being read.

I should add that clerics may have different interrpretations regarding the scripture, but none that are valid would be entirely different from official Catholic positions.
Apr 24 new
(Quote) Paul-866591 said: One problem with your comments about Anglicans. You paint them with too broad a brush. Not all ...
(Quote) Paul-866591 said:



One problem with your comments about Anglicans. You paint them with too broad a brush. Not all Anglicans are radically liberal and many still hold theology close to ours. The same is true of Lutherans.



In fact, among the so called "major" Protestant churches (which really are no longer major as they have lost far more adherents,, even nominal ones then we have. For example, there are only 200,000 active Anglicans/Episcopalians left in the US.) most progress thowards reunification has been made with the Anglican and Lutherans Churches. But we are still very far apart.

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If you are talking about the ELCA I'd largely agree with you, but the LCMS and other confessional Lutheran bodies are very conservative.
Apr 25 new

(Quote) Steve-650539 said: Don't confuse Anglican and Episcopalian. The worldwide Anglican communion holds ...
(Quote) Steve-650539 said:


Don't confuse Anglican and Episcopalian. The worldwide Anglican communion holds on to traditional Christian tenants and are "conservative". We share much in common. The American Episcopal church...well, they ain't called Epsicopagan for nothing. Pope Benedict established the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter to welcome Anglicans back into the Catholic fold. Several parishes in the US have joined and others are discerning. I attend an Anglican Rite Mass.

--hide--


I think there is some confusion here. The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it's just the name of the Anglian Church in the United States. They are all under Cantebury.

Now there are what they call "continuing Anglican Churches" such as the Anglican Catholics, or Charismatic Anglican Catholics, but these are all break aways from the overall Anglican Church. Anglican Catholics broke away in 1978 due to ordination of women and the abuse in their liturgy. They are under the jurisdiction of St. Louis.

The Anglican Church by and in large is very liberal here and around the world. Yes there are some dioceses that are more conservative such as Africa but they are becomig few and far between.

Finally the theology of the Anglican Church with regards to salavation when you get to the core is very reformed. That means calvinistic. Vastly different than what the Catholic Church believes although there were some early theologians such as Augustine who held to strict views of predestionation.

Technically you could be a borderline calvinist and still be Catholic but the Anglican Church is truly different than our Church, and there are some Anglicans who are very anti-Catholic. I do like their breviary and the 1928 common book of prayer. There are some Anglican Churches that have come into communion with Rome and they are referred to as Anglican use. They are allowed to keep their liturgy and the 1928 common book of prayer. Their priests are allowed to stay married as they are in the Eastern Rite.

Keith

Apr 25 new

(Quote) Steve-650539 said: Don't confuse Anglican and Episcopalian. The worldwide Anglican communion holds ...
(Quote) Steve-650539 said:


Don't confuse Anglican and Episcopalian. The worldwide Anglican communion holds on to traditional Christian tenants and are "conservative". We share much in common. The American Episcopal church...well, they ain't called Epsicopagan for nothing. Pope Benedict established the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter to welcome Anglicans back into the Catholic fold. Several parishes in the US have joined and others are discerning. I attend an Anglican Rite Mass.

--hide--



The following is a link to the "Anglican Catholic Church." This is a Church that broke away from Cantebury in 1978. They broke away because they became concerned of the ordination of women in 1978 and because of what they call the abuse of the liturgy by the overall Anglican Church. They are not in communion with either Rome or Cantebury. They are what is called a "continuing Anglican Church." They are on their own.

www.anglicancatholic.org

Apr 25 new

(Quote) Keith-965841 said: I think there is some confusion here. The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it...
(Quote) Keith-965841 said:



I think there is some confusion here. The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it's just the name of the Anglian Church in the United States. They are all under Cantebury.

Now there are what they call "continuing Anglican Churches" such as the Anglican Catholics, or Charismatic Anglican Catholics, but these are all break aways from the overall Anglican Church. Anglican Catholics broke away in 1978 due to ordination of women and the abuse in their liturgy. They are under the jurisdiction of St. Louis.

The Anglican Church by and in large is very liberal here and around the world. Yes there are some dioceses that are more conservative such as Africa but they are becomig few and far between.

Finally the theology of the Anglican Church with regards to salavation when you get to the core is very reformed. That means calvinistic. Vastly different than what the Catholic Church believes although there were some early theologians such as Augustine who held to strict views of predestionation.

Technically you could be a borderline calvinist and still be Catholic but the Anglican Church is truly different than our Church, and there are some Anglicans who are very anti-Catholic. I do like their breviary and the 1928 common book of prayer. They are allowed to keep their liturgy and the 1928 common book of prayer. Their priests are allowed to stay married as they are in the Eastern Rite.

Keith

--hide--

There are some Anglican Churches that have come into communion with Rome and they are referred to as Anglican use.


No, "they" are now referred to as Catholics. The Rite, or form, of the Mass is based on the Book of Divine Worship. "Anglican Use" refers to the liturgy. The people attending are fully Catholic. The term "Anglican Use" came out of the JPII's Pastoral Provision. I would argue it is a term that leads to too much misunderstanding to be used. Pope Benedict, with the publication of ANGLICANORUM COETIBUS, established the framework to bring Anglican Churches back into full communion with the Catholic Church. In the US, that is done through the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. www.usordinariate.org


The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it's just the name of the Anglian Church in the United States.


Let me rephrase, the American Epsicopal Church is outside the mainstream of the broader Anglican Church. To compare the two is not really appropriate despite a common heritage. Cantebury has little to no moral or secular authority. The Episcopalian parishes that did conform to more traditional Christian beliefs formed the Anglican Church in North America and have strong ties to the Anglicans in the Global South.


The Anglican Church is not "very reformed". The English Reformation and the Reformation that happened on the European continent were not the same. The English held on to some Catholic teaching. This is why Anglicanism was called the "via media" between Catholicism and Protestantism. The Methodists came from reform movements in the Anglican Church. The Assembly of God came out of reform movements in the Methodist church. Neither one of those are Calvinist, they are Arminian. Calvinism is not compatible with Anglican tradition. Anglicans, notably those in the Oxford Movement, considered Anglicanism the third branch of Roman Catholicism (no Calvinist would ever argue such a thing). One of the leaders of this movement was Blessed John Henry Newman. Another member of this movement was the poet Gerald Manley Hopkins who later converted and became a Jesuit priest.

Yes there are some dioceses that are more conservative such as Africa but they are becomig few and far between.
The Anglican Church in Nigeria is around 18 million; Tanzania 2.5 million. The Episcopal Church is ~2 million. I would not call that few and far between. The conservative, traditional dioceses are the only ones growing, including here in the U.S.



Apr 25 new

(Quote) Steve-650539 said: There are some Anglican Churches that have come into communion with Rome and the...
(Quote) Steve-650539 said:

There are some Anglican Churches that have come into communion with Rome and they are referred to as Anglican use.


No, "they" are now referred to as Catholics. The Rite, or form, of the Mass is based on the Book of Divine Worship. "Anglican Use" refers to the liturgy. The people attending are fully Catholic. The term "Anglican Use" came out of the JPII's Pastoral Provision. I would argue it is a term that leads to too much misunderstanding to be used. Pope Benedict, with the publication of ANGLICANORUM COETIBUS, established the framework to bring Anglican Churches back into full communion with the Catholic Church. In the US, that is done through the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. www.usordinariate.org


The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it's just the name of the Anglian Church in the United States.


Let me rephrase, the American Epsicopal Church is outside the mainstream of the broader Anglican Church. To compare the two is not really appropriate despite a common heritage. Cantebury has little to no moral or secular authority. The Episcopalian parishes that did conform to more traditional Christian beliefs formed the Anglican Church in North America and have strong ties to the Anglicans in the Global South.


The Anglican Church is not "very reformed". The English Reformation and the Reformation that happened on the European continent were not the same. The English held on to some Catholic teaching. This is why Anglicanism was called the "via media" between Catholicism and Protestantism. The Methodists came from reform movements in the Anglican Church. The Assembly of God came out of reform movements in the Methodist church. Neither one of those are Calvinist, they are Arminian. Calvinism is not compatible with Anglican tradition. Anglicans, notably those in the Oxford Movement, considered Anglicanism the third branch of Roman Catholicism (no Calvinist would ever argue such a thing). One of the leaders of this movement was Blessed John Henry Newman. Another member of this movement was the poet Gerald Manley Hopkins who later converted and became a Jesuit priest.

Yes there are some dioceses that are more conservative such as Africa but they are becomig few and far between.
The Anglican Church in Nigeria is around 18 million; Tanzania 2.5 million. The Episcopal Church is ~2 million. I would not call that few and far between. The conservative, traditional dioceses are the only ones growing, including here in the U.S.



--hide--


Steve No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about. The Episcopal Church is the name for the Anglican Church in America.

Anglican Use is the name given the Churches who have come into communion with Rome.

But believe whatever you want.

Apr 25 new

(Quote) Steve-650539 said: (Quote) Keith-965841 said: I think there is some confusion here. T...
(Quote) Steve-650539 said:

[quote]Keith-965841 said:



I think there is some confusion here. The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it's just the name of the Anglian Church in the United States. They are all under Cantebury.

Now there are what they call "continuing Anglican Churches" such as the Anglican Catholics, or Charismatic Anglican Catholics, but these are all break aways from the overall Anglican Church. Anglican Catholics broke away in 1978 due to ordination of women and the abuse in their liturgy. They are under the jurisdiction of St. Louis.

The Anglican Church by and in large is very liberal here and around the world. Yes there are some dioceses that are more conservative such as Africa but they are becomig few and far between.

Finally the theology of the Anglican Church with regards to salavation when you get to the core is very reformed. That means calvinistic. Vastly different than what the Catholic Church believes although there were some early theologians such as Augustine who held to strict views of predestionation.

Technically you could be a borderline calvinist and still be Catholic but the Anglican Church is truly different than our Church, and there are some Anglicans who are very anti-Catholic. I do like their breviary and the 1928 common book of prayer. They are allowed to keep their liturgy and the 1928 common book of prayer. Their priests are allowed to stay married as they are in the Eastern Rite.

Keith

--hide--

There are some Anglican Churches that have come into communion with Rome and they are referred to as Anglican use.


No, "they" are now referred to as Catholics. But they are called Anglican Use. anglicanuse.org

Never said they weren't so, I am not sure what your problem is here, Steve.


The Rite, or form, of the Mass is based on the Book of Divine Worship. "Anglican Use" refers to the liturgy. The people attending are fully Catholic. The term "Anglican Use" came out of the JPII's Pastoral Provision. I would argue it is a term that leads to too much misunderstanding to be used. Pope Benedict, with the publication of ANGLICANORUM COETIBUS, established the framework to bring Anglican Churches back into full communion with the Catholic Church. In the US, that is done through the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. www.usordinariate.org

Again I am not sure what your contention is, as i never once said that they were not Catholic. But Again the Church is referred to as Anglican Use and my comments actually reflect that in that they are allowed to use the 1928 Common Book of Prayer.

The Espiscopalian Church is the Anglican Church, it's just the name of the Anglian Church in the United States.


Let me rephrase, the American Epsicopal Church is outside the mainstream of the broader Anglican Church.

No it's not. That is like saying the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church is outside the mainstream of Catholicism. The Episcopal Church is the name of the Anglican Church in America. They both answer to Cantebury.



To compare the two is not really appropriate despite a common heritage.

There is no comparison and there is no "two" as they are one in the same.

Cantebury has little to no moral or secular authority. The Episcopalian parishes that did conform to more traditional Christian beliefs formed the Anglican Church in North America and have strong ties to the Anglicans in the Global South.

Different diocese such as Africa are either more conservative, meaning that they hold to the Seven Ecumenical Counsels, much like Eastern Orthodoxy. The Church as a whole is basically very liberal and fights with those who are liberal. In fact some have broken away such as the Anglican Catholics who are no longer part of Cantebury.


The Anglican Church is not "very reformed". The English Reformation and the Reformation that happened on the European continent were not the same.

Your comment above reflects that you don't know what I'm speaking about. You're comparing apples and oranges. I never said that the English Reformation and the Protestant Reformation were the same. I said that the Anglican Church has a very Calvinistic view of salvation and it does. Look it up.


The English held on to some Catholic teaching.

No they did not. Some of their liturgy is the same, but the differ vastly with regards to theology. Their view of salvation is indistuingishable from that of "Faith alone and Sola Scriptura."


This is why Anglicanism was called the "via media" between Catholicism and Protestantism. The Methodists came from reform movements in the Anglican Church. The Assembly of God came out of reform movements in the Methodist church. Neither one of those are Calvinist, they are Arminian. Calvinism is not compatible with Anglican tradition. Anglicans, notably those in the Oxford Movement, considered Anglicanism the third branch of Roman Catholicism (no Calvinist would ever argue such a thing). One of the leaders of this movement was Blessed John Henry Newman. Another member of this movement was the poet Gerald Manley Hopkins who later converted and became a Jesuit priest.

Yes there are some dioceses that are more conservative such as Africa but they are becomig few and far between.
The Anglican Church in Nigeria is around 18 million; Tanzania 2.5 million. The Episcopal Church is ~2 million. I would not call that few and far between. The conservative, traditional dioceses are the only ones growing, including here in the U.S.



I'm not really sure why you're arguing for. For one you are wrong on lots of your "facts."

But as I said before believe whatever you want.

Apr 30 new

(Quote) Keith-965841 said: Steve No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about. The Episco...
(Quote) Keith-965841 said:



Steve No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about. The Episcopal Church is the name for the Anglican Church in America.

Anglican Use is the name given the Churches who have come into communion with Rome.

But believe whatever you want.

--hide--


Keith, I think it's reasonable to say that we all would agree that calling the former Anglican groups, which have come into communion with the Holy Father, Anglican Use Churches is likely a regional thing.

I have never, personally, heard these reconciled groups called Anglican Use Churches, but that doesn't mean they're not called that in your regions of expertise and experience. Really, it's not an essential point, but a semantic one. No one is disagreeing essentially that these reconciled groups take advantage of the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite for liturgical practice.

Also, I am of the same belief as you re: the Episcopal group/church; it is essentially Anglican, though there may be some distinguishing accidents.

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