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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
Learn More: Saint Augustine

May 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said: Hi Frank Your ever hear men saying how wives should be submissive to their husbands? It...
(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:

Hi Frank

Your ever hear men saying how wives should be submissive to their husbands? It is in the Bible. Women should come back with, "Men should love their wives..." Saying that wives should be submissive is fine, but it is not the whole story. When anyone forgets to teach the whole story, or lives their life on part of the story they are wrong.

So it is with sex. Judism and Catholicism acknowledge the intensely sexual nature of men and women and actually encourage people to have sex. It is a very old tradition. Now it is true that men and women are encouraged to wait until marriage, but there is, again, more to the story.

Our roots come from a time when women were thought of as property. If a man needed a wife he could go buy one. Courtship, dating and engagement were very different than they are today. In past times a woman could not be seen with a man who was not her husband. So, one might ask, how do you go out on a date? Even today, in parts of the world and in various cultures in the United States, the process of getting married would view things like CM as absolutely wrong. I have seen posts, on THIS website, where a Catholic priest condemned what we do on CM as wrong. His reasoning was that it lead to too much serious conversation between men and woman which leads to lust, or the desire for sex.

So fine, it is ok to say not to have sex before marriage but we should tell all of the story. Not just part of it. So what is the rest of the story?

--hide--

I was expecting you to answer the question you ended off with... I'm a little disappointed. What story are you referring to?

I don't believe Catholicism "acknowledge[s] the intensely sexual nature" of mankind at all. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the wording sounds very modern saying this is a natural necessity. Completely UNtrue. Men and women have proved through the ages, it is possible to forebear from this aspect of our humanity. Many of us are, however, very inclined to sin against chastity.

Wives were not necessarily purchased, are you referring to arranged marriages..?

As a rebuttal to what I believe is your point (?): keeping the marital act within a lifelong commitment of marriage has both spiritual and common sense reasons. Very briefly....for the latter: stable children come from stable homes- look at the chaos and monsters our generations have been birthing! Religion is built on the societal unit- families are the building blocks of these units, again- look at our current chaos. Also, sharing yourself so completely with another person creates- intended or not- an intimate relationship with that person. A simple dating breakup nowadays is as difficult as a divorce for many people!

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May 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:Your ever hear men saying how wives should be submissive to their husbands? It is in the Bible. Wo...
(Quote) Lawrence-943343 said:
Your ever hear men saying how wives should be submissive to their husbands? It is in the Bible. Women should come back with, "Men should love their wives..." Saying that wives should be submissive is fine, but it is not the whole story.
--hide--


The text also needs to be understood in context as well, St. Paul is saying it's OK to talk about submission, but as Christians it means something different then it does to the gentiles.

One other way of looking at this text is to take a look at the word submission as it's root words sub & mission, sub to get under so the wife is meant to put herself under the mission of her husband. Then of course we need to look at the mission of the husband which is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church, and died for his love. So St. Paul is really saying wives allow your husbands to love you, and die for you if necissary.

Reality is this biblical text is signicantly more "scary" to men then women!

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May 15th 2013 new

(Quote) Felicity-929402 said: I was expecting you to answer the question you ended off with... I'm a little dis...
(Quote) Felicity-929402 said:

I was expecting you to answer the question you ended off with... I'm a little disappointed. What story are you referring to?

I don't believe Catholicism "acknowledge[s] the intensely sexual nature" of mankind at all. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the wording sounds very modern saying this is a natural necessity. Completely UNtrue. Men and women have proved through the ages, it is possible to forebear from this aspect of our humanity. Many of us are, however, very inclined to sin against chastity.

Wives were not necessarily purchased, are you referring to arranged marriages..?

As a rebuttal to what I believe is your point (?): keeping the marital act within a lifelong commitment of marriage has both spiritual and common sense reasons. Very briefly....for the latter: stable children come from stable homes- look at the chaos and monsters our generations have been birthing! Religion is built on the societal unit- families are the building blocks of these units, again- look at our current chaos. Also, sharing yourself so completely with another person creates- intended or not- an intimate relationship with that person. A simple dating breakup nowadays is as difficult as a divorce for many people!

--hide--

If you don't think Judo-Christian tradition acknowledges the sexual nature of man then read 1st Corinthians chapter 7. Or maybe you think Paul is off on one of his rants, or something.

I think Paul was saying sex is a necessity, or close to it. But again, you interpret it the way you want. More that proving men and women can abstain from sex, they have proved they cannot. I guess we read different history books. Paul's solution to the sex issue was to get married and have enough sex with your wife to be satisfied. I am not sure what the deal is for women, probably the same, have enough sex with your husband to be satisfied.

I completely agree that sex belongs in marriage. But there is much more to the story of how God designed sex, and marriage to work. I know what it is. What I am waiting for is if anybody else does. I will say that in our modern world many people do it right, many people don't. That should be obvious because as you put it, the sins against chastity and many other things. I will say that if you don't fully understand God's plan odds are you will never get a marriage to work. I gave you a really big hint in my original post.

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May 15th 2013 new

Hi Peter

Your right. I agree 100%. In the Biblical concept of marriage the husband was the head of the house. Now, to be fair, many times the husband is not the head. Many times the wife makes a decision and the husband needs to support her, to LOVE her. Boy, will I get dumped on for saying that. I'll probably get banned from the site. As the couple grows in their love for one another the need, or desire, to be the head diminishes. What the heck, might as well go all the way. At some point in your dating, not in your marriage, you have to make the commitment in your heart to die for this person that you love, if required. So how to you get from "Hi, my name is Larry" to realizing I would die for Patricia? Pretty sure it worked the same way for her. Want to marry someone you wouldn't die for? God will chew you up and spit you out. You know not of Jesus, or passion, or love.

You know what the really bad part is? We don't get to die for our wives. We have to live and watch them die. So how does the topic of sex fit into the context of loving someone so much you would die for them? Now we are starting to tell the rest of the story.

Over time the Church has actually believed that men have much more of a sexual need than women. Because of this they have, about a thousand years ago, sorta ok'ed going to a brothel. (I am sure that the fact that the bishop owned the brothel had nothing to do with it). This is a bunch of crap. Women have every bit as much sexual desire as men but that doesn't matter. If husbands and wives love each other as they are supposed to they will be in-tune with each other and sex will not be an issue. Both will give to the other as needed. And, if sex is not possible, the love they share will fix it.

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May 16th 2013 new
Excellent reply, Felicity....thanks
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May 16th 2013 new
Hi Lawrence,

From a quick perisal of your profile, it's obvious that you're very bright, and have a good sense of humor.

Here comes the "but."

You have an opinion that is couched in mystery. You maybe want to provoke further discussion, but in the process, you've generalized to some extent.

Let me express my point of view as succinctly as possible.

It's luxurious to be a Catholic, since it was founded by Jesus Christ, with the promise that it would be guided by the Holy Spirit, and in matters of Faith and Morals, when expressed, "ex-cathedra" would be free from error.
We don't believe in individual intrepretation of the Bible, though we are encouraged to read it, and I'm sure we extrapolate from our readings, that which makes us happy. What makes me happy is that it's clear that pre-marital sex is against God's plan for us, that we're all God's lambs, and woe to those who lead His lambs astray, wheter it be DELIBERATELY through provocative dress, or the DELIBERATE spread of error on this and other mportant topics.

Notice the use of the word DELIBERATE. Current social mores lead many women to dress in a provocative manner, but I'd guess, by and large, it's not deliberate. TV and print encourage masturbation and many other sins against purity and chastity.

The Saints give us examples of their efforts to overcome temptation, e.g. St Francis throwing himself into the briars.

If your eye......pluck it out."

So, I agree that the sexual drive is very strong, or who'd bother! It is, however, the foundtion of God's gift to married couples in which they become one.....hopefully one with Him.
So while I would like to have a harem of my own, I rely on God's grace and help to understand that its purpose is not my satisfaction and pleasure, unless in the proper context.
Thanks to all who have posted here. It helps with my confusion.....





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May 16th 2013 new
"Now, to be fair, many times the husband is not the head. Many times the wife makes a decision and the husband needs to support her, to LOVE her.", by Lawrence.

Guess we all know how that turned out for Adam, don't we!! wide eyed
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May 16th 2013 new
Ouch, that hurts. That is come tell twisting the Faith, abusing the great gift of Confession and tempting God. Plus, Absolution is absolving Only when there is a genuine intent 'to go and sin no more.'
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May 16th 2013 new
My last post was in response to one a ways back regarding sinning and sinning again because one can go to Confession. I am having difficulty with the quite and reply on my phone.

There is an old saying: Catholicism is a hard faith to live by but a glorious one to die with
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May 16th 2013 new
I am saddened at the harsh and very judgmental responses thrown against those who do not believe in some of the Catholic teachings, especially those who are okay with pre-marital sex.

As someone who responded "No" to two of the faith questions, let me share with you my rationale for responding "No" to the topic being discussed here.

While I believe that a man and a woman should wait before marriage, I just happen to be one of the "fallen" angels, who believed a man, fell in love and had made love outside marriage. Did it make me less of a woman? Less of a God's child? It gave me heartaches. There were moments of depression and low-self-esteem. But never less as a God's child.

I responded "No" because I do not want to mislead my potential partner, if he is out here. I am just no longer a virgin. Period. As much as I can, I would like to wait. But I couldn't completely say, I would not in the future, I am no saint.

So must I say "Yes" to get approval from a man who wants a virgin woman or a woman who believes in this? I say, that man alone, if it is one of his main criteria of finding a wife, while I respect his beliefs, does not fit to be my husband. I'd rather remain single than be with someone who wants me because I am a virgin or because I believed in all of the Church' teachings.

So my question again - if you can't wait till marriage, will it make me less of a person? As I mentioned, I'll be vulnerable or prone to pain and suffering. But I believe I would not be less of a Godly person. I'd still be the same Lesil, a wonderful child of God, who is becoming the person He designed me to be.

To those who strongly judged those of us who engaged or believe in pre-marital sex, while I respect that you have such patience and strong faith to wait before marriage, please instead of being judgmental or indifferent to your brothers and sisters who do not, kindly show love and understanding. Practice love and compassion.

Peace and God bless us.
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