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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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May 19th 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: Lesil,
The law of the Church is that unbaptised Catholics (or one who has committed suicide), cannot be buried in consecrated ground. Children are like sponges and purity is easily lost, I would absolutely discourage my child from any intimate friendships with non-Catholics, or bad Catholics, within reason. That's a general rule, there can be exceptions.

People were not "indifferent" to lepers, they hated them. Lepers were thrown from their homes, disowned by their families and neighbours, and required to keep out-of-sight or range-of-smell for the healthy. Holy Mother Church in her age-old wisdom, does not hate non-Catholics. She is sad for them and wants to see them included in the joys of heaven one day. (See my note above: where is the motivation to join the Faith if they are "okay"?)
Hi, Felicity.

No worries. I, too, have tried to respond in more details as I can and many times the webpage shows error. Hope this bugs gets fixed soon.

I have serious concern in this law of our Church. What if in a small town, there is only one cemetery and that is Catholic, should we not allow an unbaptized Catholic or non-Catholic or one who has committed suicide burial because of this law? Remember also when Jesus Christ healed someone during a Sabbath? It was a law not to do anything in a Sabbath or on a Holy Day, but Jesus did. That's what He'd like us to do. To do what is right, not just to know what is right.

About discouraging a child from intimate friendships, my concern with this is if we do that, we are teaching division, which is not a loving way to teach a child. He'll learn to see others as impure or ungodly, and himself as part of a chosen few. That can be very damaging, for when he grows up, he may learn to be boastful and proud.

-----
End of Part I - It wont post my full response. :)
May 19th 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: People were not "indifferent" to lepers, they hated them. Lepers were thrown from their homes, disowned by their families and neighbours, and required to keep out-of-sight or range-of-smell for the healthy. Holy Mother Church in her age-old wisdom, does not hate non-Catholics. She is sad for them and wants to see them included in the joys of heaven one day. (See my note above: where is the motivation to join the Faith if they are "okay"?)

Do not fall in to the Protestant error, Lesil, of only seeing God's mercy. He is perfect Justice as well, and "man cannot understand the judgements of God" The Catechist. He gave us laws- not to break, but to follow if we want to show our love for Him.
My mentioning about the lepers is to illustrate how most of us treat other people of different faith. But since you mentioned already, I'd like to point out that we must not encourage hating lepers, even for health reasons. First leprosy can now be treated as I know, and it is not contagious as what was the belief. In our country, there was a colony of lepers. They've been isolated in an island, away from the rest of us. I couldnt imagine how difficult it must have been for them. Luckily, they rose above it all. They built a beautiful community on their own, with little help from the outside world. Now, it's become a tourist destination, because the stigma that leprosy is contagious is slowly being broken, and their story has inspired people.

I am not falling into the Protestant's error. What I am saying is we must work harder to show more love and compassion, instead of focusing too much in our laws and dogmas and doctrines. If you read or watch the news today, that's the same message the Holy Pope conveyed lately - to help the poor, not dissect theology.
May 19th 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: I'm not quite sure what you mean by:
" Your word that "we should not treat them as though they do" will only breed misunderstanding, distrust then hatred. And that is not what God wants us to have". My words indicated that treating their "truth" as being EQUAL to Catholic "Truth" is fallacious at best, and extremely hypocritical at worst. How can Catholics say "We have God's Truth, but it's okay if you want to continue floating along in your 'truth' because you like it better"....? Truth is true, and a deliberate half-truth is still a lie, no matter how we nod and smile and bow and wink about it.

... Charity and mercy are extremely important, but sometimes charity requires that we take a hard stance toward someone or something. Fortitude in God's Truth is always the most important. 
I am inclined to disagree that fortitude in God's Truth is the most important. Jesus Christ said this before He was taken to heaven - the greatest commandment is this - that you shall love your neighbor as I love you. God will be delighted if we loved our brothers and did not treat him less. I believe He said this because when we love our brothers just as He loves us, in return, we love Him.

My point in your word re: "we should not treat them as though they do" can breed misunderstanding, distrust then hatred is because it can be misunderstood that we must not treat them as believers, which was what I understood from your text. But when you explained it, I now got your point. However, I hope that instead of pointing to them what is right or wrong, well focus more on showing them what is good. There's a huge difference and oftentimes, our deeds, not our knowledge of the truth, is what helps them become a believer.

Have a blessed Sunday!!!
rosary
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) Lesil-840134 said: Hi, Felicity.

No worries. I, too, have tried to respond in more details as I can and many times the webpage shows error. Hope this bugs gets fixed soon.

I have serious concern in this law of our Church. What if in a small town, there is only one cemetery and that is Catholic, should we not allow an unbaptized Catholic or non-Catholic or one who has committed suicide burial because of this law? Remember also when Jesus Christ healed someone during a Sabbath? It was a law not to do anything in a Sabbath or on a Holy Day, but Jesus did. That's what He'd like us to do. To do what is right, not just to know what is right.

About discouraging a child from intimate friendships, my concern with this is if we do that, we are teaching division, which is not a loving way to teach a child. He'll learn to see others as impure or ungodly, and himself as part of a chosen few. That can be very damaging, for when he grows up, he may learn to be boastful and proud.

-----
End of Part I - It wont post my full response. :)
First of all, it's a law of the Church so we don't really have a right to question it. Second, I don't believe there is such thing anymore as a totally Catholic cemetery. Perhaps it was due to the small town scenario or perhaps it is due to the large city issue- where a Catholic-only cemetery would be considered discriminatory by people who try to please everyone and end up insulting God.....regardless.. a priest would now bless the single plot designated for the burial now. If it's for a non-Catholic, a priest wouldn't be the master of ceremonies and even if he was for some reason (a relative perhaps), he wouldn't consecrate that plot.

Do keep in mind, that Jesus's healing on the Sabbath was exactly an example of what you (or someone) referred to earlier- "orthodox" Jews who screamed about every little thing. Common sense is always vital...the rule I live by. Obviously Jesus's minor labor required to heal a sick person in the fashion He did wouldn't really constitute labor anyway, and again, common sense, when someone needs help now- one cannot wait.

Teaching a child that certain things and ideas are impure or ungodly is one's duty as a parent. God has entrusted these pure little souls to his parents' care, it is their job to raise him as a God-loving and God-fearing and law-following person. If you are comfortable that your child is of a strong nature and would not easily fall into the temptation to follow Protestant error- then by all means.. allow them these friendships. Like I said, it comes down to a case-by-case judgement and common sense. The good example that can be set must always be balanced against the danger to his soul.

If a parent is not capable of teaching a balanced version of a "some things are bad and we should avoid them" so the child ends up with an arrogant attitude,.... well, that is a failing on the parent. But it would also be a failing for them to allow their child to think that "everything's all good and God accepts whatever". I hate to repeat myself, but this is gross hypocrisy and more damaging to a child's upbringing. - like building a house on sand instead of stone.
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) Lesil-840134 said: My mentioning about the lepers is to illustrate how most of us treat other people of different faith. But since you mentioned already, I'd like to point out that we must not encourage hating lepers, even for health reasons. First leprosy can now be treated as I know, and it is not contagious as what was the belief. In our country, there was a colony of lepers. They've been isolated in an island, away from the rest of us. I couldnt imagine how difficult it must have been for them. Luckily, they rose above it all. They built a beautiful community on their own, with little help from the outside world. Now, it's become a tourist destination, because the stigma that leprosy is contagious is slowly being broken, and their story has inspired people.

I am not falling into the Protestant's error. What I am saying is we must work harder to show more love and compassion, instead of focusing too much in our laws and dogmas and doctrines. If you read or watch the news today, that's the same message the Holy Pope conveyed lately - to help the poor, not dissect theology.
"He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me." Gospel from yesterday's feast: John 14:15-21
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) Lesil-840134 said: I am inclined to disagree that fortitude in God's Truth is the most important. Jesus Christ said this before He was taken to heaven - the greatest commandment is this - that you shall love your neighbor as I love you. God will be delighted if we loved our brothers and did not treat him less. I believe He said this because when we love our brothers just as He loves us, in return, we love Him.

My point in your word re: "we should not treat them as though they do" can breed misunderstanding, distrust then hatred is because it can be misunderstood that we must not treat them as believers, which was what I understood from your text. But when you explained it, I now got your point. However, I hope that instead of pointing to them what is right or wrong, well focus more on showing them what is good. There's a huge difference and oftentimes, our deeds, not our knowledge of the truth, is what helps them become a believer.

Have a blessed Sunday!!!
No, you are misquoting or misunderstanding. Commandment #1 given to Moses: Love the Lord thy God before all else. Christ: "The first law is this: to love the Lord thy God with thy whole soul, with thy whole mind, and with thy whole body. The second is this: love thy neighbour as thyself". Notice that God comes first..? That would include His laws. I believe your reference is from when Christ was asked by the pharisees something like: which is more important- Keeping the Sabath or helping thy neighbour in His need? Or St. Paul saying Charity is the greatest virtue.

"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. ...If any one abide not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither.." The Gospel for St. Venatius - martyr for the Faith, May 18, John 15:1-7
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: This 'catechism' is not Doctrine, but contains therein the error of modern Ecumenicalism. Yes, the
error. If we "accept" that the Protestants have the means of salvation, wherein is their motivation to return to the Church? How can they be "Christ-followers" when they deny His holy Presence in the Blessed Sacrament, His holy mother Mary, His representative on earth, etc?
I think a better simile in this case would asking if someone who denies the leadership and rules of a club, and encourages people to stay away from the club can be considered part of the club, just because they like the name and the guy who founded the club.


The catechism contains the teachings of the Church. Some of what is in it is doctrine, some of it is not. All of it is what the Church teaches. So if you are going to claim that the Church is in error, you need to bring some more proof to the table than a vague accusation of modernism.

Even if for the sake of argument I agreed with your premise here, you need to seriously rethink the claim that Protestants belong in the same category as Muslims and Buddhists.

Protestants profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Muslims deny that. But if they are in the same category, being the Son of God must not be important.

Protestants believe in the Holy Trinity. Buddhists do not. But you say they are in the same category, so the Holy Trinity must not be important either.

Obviously this can go on for a long time.

Your analogy with the club isn't bad, but it has an important flaw. I'd agree that God has told the Church to run the club for him on earth, but the difference is that ultimately it is still God who approves the membership list, not us.
May 20th 2013 new
You are incorrect. Conditional baptism is not always a necessity for converts. This is why I am called a candidate rather than a catechumenate. I may partake of the sacrament of penance, though I still await confirmation. There is no need for you to put "conditional" in scare quotes; it is called conditional because the prior baptism may have been valid.

The basis behind saying not all Protestants are going to hell is that there is a difference between willful apostasy and simply growing up according to the wrong teachings. One is a mortal sin, and the other is a grave matter.

If you want to know what might incline a Protestant to convert, other than believing he is damned to hell if he doesn't, you might try actually asking one.

Hi. I'm a candidate with seminary training. Want to ask me? I can promise you we aren't all rebellious clergy-haters who scoff at legitimate authority when we understand that authority.

The central theme of Catholic engagement with the outside world, that is, of Catholicism outside of whatever divisive group you belong to, is a stubborn spirit of charity and an unshakeable belief in basic human dignity.

Why do we seek to defend the unborn? Among other reasons, they have intrinsic worth.
Why do we seek to discourage homosexuality publicly? Among other reasons, because homosexuals are persons with basic human dignity, homosexuality like all sexual sin is an affront to that dignity, and they can do better because they are worth more than that.

THIS attitude, specifically as expressed by the National Catholic Register in their excellent articles, was extremely influential in my conversion. If you spoke true of Catholicism, however, I'd just go to the Greek Orthodox church instead. THEY were nice to the Greek-speaking Recovering Evangelical who walked in off the street for Pascha/Easter at midnight. They were incredibly nice. I even had cake at 2 a.m. in a church building.

Christos Anesti! Alithos Anesti!
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) John-336509 said: The catechism contains the teachings of the Church. Some of what is in it is doctrine, some of it is not. All of it is what the Church teaches. So if you are going to claim that the Church is in error, you need to bring some more proof to the table than a vague accusation of modernism.

Even if for the sake of argument I agreed with your premise here, you need to seriously rethink the claim that Protestants belong in the same category as Muslims and Buddhists.

Protestants profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Muslims deny that. But if they are in the same category, being the Son of God must not be important.

Protestants believe in the Holy Trinity. Buddhists do not. But you say they are in the same category, so the Holy Trinity must not be important either.

Obviously this can go on for a long time.

Your analogy with the club isn't bad, but it has an important flaw. I'd agree that God has told the Church to run the club for him on earth, but the difference is that ultimately it is still God who approves the membership list, not us.
Thank you, brother. The idea that I am a godless dog until confirmation is really far out there. I don't know of any educated Catholic that would express such a belief. Certainly not Pope Francis, given his interaction with that influential rabbi in writing that book in Spanish.

I'm pretty sure that means the Pope thinks Jews (and perhaps also Protestants, then?) are capable of sometimes-legitimate theology on at least some topics. en.wikipedia.org
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) Gary-936836 said: You are incorrect. Conditional baptism is not always a necessity for converts. This is why I am called a candidate rather than a catechumenate. I may partake of the sacrament of penance, though I still await confirmation. There is no need for you to put "conditional" in scare quotes; it is called conditional because the prior baptism may have been valid.

The basis behind saying not all Protestants are going to hell is that there is a difference between willful apostasy and simply growing up according to the wrong teachings. One is a mortal sin, and the other is a grave matter.

If you want to know what might incline a Protestant to convert, other than believing he is damned to hell if he doesn't, you might try actually asking one.

Hi. I'm a candidate with seminary training. Want to ask me? I can promise you we aren't all rebellious clergy-haters who scoff at legitimate authority when we understand that authority.

The central theme of Catholic engagement with the outside world, that is, of Catholicism outside of whatever divisive group you belong to, is a stubborn spirit of charity and an unshakeable belief in basic human dignity.

Why do we seek to defend the unborn? Among other reasons, they have intrinsic worth.
Why do we seek to discourage homosexuality publicly? Among other reasons, because homosexuals are persons with basic human dignity, homosexuality like all sexual sin is an affront to that dignity, and they can do better because they are worth more than that.

THIS attitude, specifically as expressed by the National Catholic Register in their excellent articles, was extremely influential in my conversion. If you spoke true of Catholicism, however, I'd just go to the Greek Orthodox church instead. THEY were nice to the Greek-speaking Recovering Evangelical who walked in off the street for Pascha/Easter at midnight. They were incredibly nice. I even had cake at 2 a.m. in a church building.

Christos Anesti! Alithos Anesti!
" " indicates a technical term or a direct quote, not "scare quotes". I know exactly what conditional baptism is, that's why I brought it up. Notice I didn't say it was obligatory, but that it happens.

Please understand, sir, that at no point in time in any of my posts have I said that Protestants are all going to hell or should be burned in the stake. My point, and obviously since you have converted you would agree with, is that the Catholic Church has the TRUE KEY to salvation and Protestants should be not be treated as though what they are doing is correct. Education is necessary and only God can make the judgement as to a non-Catholics salvation. We are hurting the chances of their converting if we tell them everything is fine.

Frankly, this is a theological discussion of the Truth and you have no idea how I treat converts or potential converts in real life. If you follow the forums frequently, you may have seen some of my posts before about being patient and charitable with people. I live and work with many non-Catholics, and most comment on my good behavior before they even know I am Catholic. If I am questioned on these beliefs, I state the Truth- Christ and His Church are the way to Heaven, but only if asked; far be it from me to stand on the street with a "Don't go to Hell!" sign.

I thank God for His graces to you and to me- not only Protestants are in need of conversions sometimes.

Dominus tecum!
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