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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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May 20th 2013 new
One more thing to add: I never said Protestants are lacking in any good whatsoever. In fact, I distinctly said that individuals who are non-Catholic may have good qualities, some...many DO very good things. I have gone to help out with Operation Christmas Child myself. I know they picket against abortion and gay marriage and this is good. As I said before, every good Protestant is a Catholic waiting to happen... the grace is certainly there!

However, coming back to my original point in this doctrinal discussion: Protestant churches have such varying degrees of agreement on truth and justice that we can't really generalize about their beliefs. Some DO believe abortion is okay (in certain circumstances), some DO NOT; others stand BEHIND gay marriage, others stand IN FRONT of it. It is this very disunity that causes the whole problem of "whose truth is The Truth" and only the Catholic Church comes out on top.
May 20th 2013 new
(quote) John-336509 said: The catechism contains the teachings of the Church. Some of what is in it is doctrine, some of it is not. All of it is what the Church teaches. So if you are going to claim that the Church is in error, you need to bring some more proof to the table than a vague accusation of modernism.

Even if for the sake of argument I agreed with your premise here, you need to seriously rethink the claim that Protestants belong in the same category as Muslims and Buddhists.

Protestants profess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Muslims deny that. But if they are in the same category, being the Son of God must not be important.

Protestants believe in the Holy Trinity. Buddhists do not. But you say they are in the same category, so the Holy Trinity must not be important either.

Obviously this can go on for a long time.

Your analogy with the club isn't bad, but it has an important flaw. I'd agree that God has told the Church to run the club for him on earth, but the difference is that ultimately it is still God who approves the membership list, not us.
The Councils of Trent and Florence (1441)- doctrinal councils- and Pope Pius IX and X disagree with this catechism in so far as it is different from the traditional teachings of the Church.

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the Devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with her..." (Council of Florence)
- my addendum: in other places, the allowance for the Baptism of Desire is granted. It is this Baptism that those who die without undergoing the actual Sacrament may be saved. (or the Baptism of Blood in the case of my own namesake saint :) )

Muslims believe Jesus was a very nice man who was probably a prophet.. That's very nice of them.
The Trinity? Heavens, ALL these things are important to me, that's why I reject the teachings of those who teach against them. Isn't the True Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist important? - this is completely rejected by most, if not all, of the Protestant churches.

Any analogy- especially one dealing with His Majesty- will break down at some point. I agree that only God knows who is really on the list, but as I quoted the Gospels from yesterday: He gave us laws to follow and expects us to be members of His Church. We should avoid the opposite side of this error by granting membership to those who may, very well, not have it. I think it was the Council of Trent that said 'God will grant the grace of conversion to almost everyone in his life. Those who receive this grace will be judged [among other things] according to how they cooperated with this grace.'
May 20th 2013 new
Felicity: I am truly sorry for so horrendously misreading you, Felicity. I haven't had the pleasure of interacting with you before, and at 1 a.m. I can get a bit cranky, I suppose.

I would still insist that Protestantism is several steps above Buddhism. Even Islam and Judaism are above Buddhism, for that religion as well as Hinduism have no basis for understanding human dignity, and therefore human rights. That is why India's living situation is what it is. It's fate. It's their caste. It's their lot and life, and they deserve it.

Or so their religion tells them. And if I had grown up in anything other than Protestantism, I would not have chosen Catholicism based on the belief that the same holy book is right, and everyone else is getting it wrong. You're totally right that the keys were given to the apostles, and the master key to Peter. No doubt there.

I look forward to more genial interactions in the future. I am genuinely chastened by your kind response.

Gratias tibi ago.

Be well.
May 20th 2013 new
Gary, thank you! I never expected anything like that to follow....
I would actually agree with you about the types of religions to be preferred. I just like playing a devil's advocate sometimes. One of my friends was recently in India and he would add some interesting things to this type of discussion.
God bless!
May 20th 2013 new
Gary, I was just reading some forum posts on this rainy evening, and wanted to give you a link to some paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that I think you will find of interest. -Regarding how the Church views various denomination and other religions.
www.vatican.va
especially paragraphs like #817-819 Wounds in Unity, & #836-848

for sake of argument:
-(Pope John Paul II) www.vatican.va"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion."

-(POPE BENEDICT XVI, FRASCATI - 15 JULY 2012)www.ncregister.com.
"...read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and rediscover the beauty of being Christians,"














May 21st 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: ...
Muslims believe Jesus was a very nice man who was probably a prophet.. That's very nice of them.
The Trinity? Heavens, ALL these things are important to me, that's why I reject the teachings of those who teach against them. Isn't the True Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist important? - this is completely rejected by most, if not all, of the Protestant churches.
...
You're evading the issue. By your own admission you acknowledge that Muslim have a completely non-Christian view of Christ. The Protestants, who agree with us completely on that point, you throw into the same category as the Muslims. This is absurd and unnecessarily abrasive.

The irony here is that this whole train of discussion started when you made the comment, "Every good Protestant is a Catholic waiting to happen with God's grace and in His good time." And then you basically turn around and spit in their face, saying they aren't any different than Wiccans.

There are things in this world that are black and white. There are also shades of gray. Making a statement that Protestants lack the completeness of Catholicism is completely correct. To claim that belong in the same theological category as Hindus is over-reaching. To put it mildly.
May 21st 2013 new
John, I think you are creating an issue. As I mentioned above to Gary, I agree that are 'levels', if you will, to preferable religions i.e. if someone cannot be Catholic than at the leas they should be...** .
My point is, none of them are Catholic, none of them follow Christ in the fullness that He demands.
May 21st 2013 new
You should consider too, John, that God calls his followers from all walks of life. Rich and poor, male and female, Jew and Muslim, Protestant and Buddist, etc. We cannot write these people off just because they do not acknowledge Christ as Christians do.
May 21st 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: You should consider too, John, that God calls his followers from all walks of life. Rich and poor, male and female, Jew and Muslim, Protestant and Buddist, etc. We cannot write these people off just because they do not acknowledge Christ as Christians do.
?
Really? You are the one exhibiting an attitude of Catholic chauvanism and you think *I* am the one who needs to consider that God calls his followers from all walks of life?

Wow.

rolling eyes
May 21st 2013 new
(quote) Felicity-929402 said: John, I think you are creating an issue. As I mentioned above to Gary, I agree that are 'levels', if you will, to preferable religions i.e. if someone cannot be Catholic than at the leas they should be...** .
My point is, none of them are Catholic, none of them follow Christ in the fullness that He demands.
If you honestly thing I am "creating an issue," all you need to do is explicitly admit that Protestants are making a good faith attempt to follow Christ. Not some mumbling about "levels" or vaguely conceding there exist some kind of undefined hierarchy of religious preferences. The mere fact that Protestants are in fact trying to follow Christ, even if imperfectly, in and of itself separates them from Muslims, Buddhists and all the other religious group out there who while maybe trying to be good are making absolutely no attempt to follow Christ as all.

Your original characterization of Protestants as "... not true followers of Christ, but mere usurpers of the name Christ-follower, they belong to the same class of non-Catholic, un-Christian peoples as the Muslims, Buddists, Wiccans, etc." is overkill, chauvinistic, and uncharitable. That is the issue here, and you created it, not me or anyone else.
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