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A place to learn, mingle, and share

This room is for the discussion of current events,cultural issues and politics especially in relation to Catholic values.

Saint Thomas More was martyred during the Protestant Reformation for standing firm in the Faith and not recognizing the King of England as the Supreme Head of the Church.
Learn More:Saint Thomas More

Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) John-336509 said: The request was to cite the law violated, not give examples of other people voicing an opinion that there was a law violated.

If binding international law was violated, somebody should be able to quote it.
Well, given that it was a war of aggression since we attacked first, how about the Kellogg-Briand pact of 1928 and the United Nations Charter that confirms the original interdict. We are one of the original signatories, and it is named after one of our secretaries of State, and Iraq was a mandate of a original signatory, namely Britain.

en.wikipedia.org

This pact created "crimes against peace," against which the Nazi leadership was convicted during the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal.

en.wikipedia.org

The Korean War, it should be noted, was invoked by the United Nations as a corrective to the North's invasion of South Korea, which was held to be a crime against peace under the U.N. Charter.

Jun 2nd 2013 new
Also, John, before you ask if the Kellogg Briand Pact is still valid, the answer from the Council of Foreign Relations is "yes, it is."

blogs.cfr.org

The issue of the legality of the Iraq War, therefore, hangs on whether Bush's and British PM Blair's interpretation of resolution 1441 validly mandated war as a corrective action. Given that a resolution finding Iraq in material breach of the ceasefire was never passed, which would have allowed the U.S. to go in to restore peace, that is in question.

Jun 2nd 2013 new
Let's go beyond the mere argument that whatever is not ruled illegal is allowed in international relations, a theory the United States seems to hold, to whether it was moral in the eyes of the Church. The Church, as we know, is the ultimate authority since Christ the King is ultimate sovereign over all the nations. All temporal rulers are either directly ordained by God, as in the case of the Kings of France, or permitted by God, as in the case of the United States.

Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. [Romans, 13:1]

www.drbo.org

In this case, the ruling from two Popes is clear; the Iraq War was unjust. Blessed Pope John Paul II declared the war to be unjust and illegal before the invasion was ordered by President Bush, and he not only publicly declared it such, but sent Pio Cardinal Laghi on March 6, 2003 to convey the message to President Bush personally.

www.chron.com.

The Pope reminded President Bush of this when the President visited the Pontiff at the Vatican in a location directed at him:

catholicism.about.com.

catholicism.about.com

This is a judgement that Pope Benedict XVI vindicated as well.






Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Well, given that it was a war of aggression since we attacked first, how about the Kellogg-Briand pact of 1928 and the United Nations Charter that confirms the original interdict....

Ah but you are incorrect here.

From a legal perspective, the Iraq war of 2003 is an extension of the Gulf War of 1991. As we all know, it was Iraq that launched that war. The aggression, therefore, is on the part of Iraq, not the United States.

That war was suspended in a ceasefire agreement, not ended in a definitive peace. Thousands upon thousands of years of precedent hold that once one side has violated a ceasefire, the other side is free to immediately resume hostilities if they so choose. There is absolutely no requirement that the UN or any other outside entity make some kind of formal finding declaration of a violation.

Even if that was the case, the UN in Resolution 1441 did in fact agree that Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire. While the resolution did not specifically discuss an immediate resumption of hostilities, such a discussion was not necessary. It is of far more legal significance that it did not prohibit further military action.

But again, all of that is moot. The moment Iraqi air defense engaged coalition aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones way back in the Clinton administration, the U.S. and coalition partners were legally free to resume hostilities.
Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: Let's go beyond the mere argument that whatever is not ruled illegal is allowed in international relations, a theory the United States seems to hold, to whether it was moral in the eyes of the Church. The Church, as we know, is the ultimate authority since Christ the King is ultimate sovereign over all the nations. All temporal rulers are either directly ordained by God, as in the case of the Kings of France, or permitted by God, as in the case of the United States.
...





You're stretching quite a bit here. In the Lateran Treaty, the Church pledged neutrality in international relations. That precludes it from peremptorily deciding who can do what.

Likewise, the personal opinions on matters of politics of the Pope not only do not have any legally binding authority, but even on a moral plane remain opinions, not doctrine.
Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) John-336509 said: You're stretching quite a bit here. In the Lateran Treaty, the Church pledged neutrality in international relations. That precludes it from peremptorily deciding who can do what.

Likewise, the personal opinions on matters of politics of the Pope not only do not have any legally binding authority, but even on a moral plane remain opinions, not doctrine.
You don't think war is a moral issue in which the Church can speak? The Pope teaching is binding on matters of Faith and Morals, and where the Magisterium has clear teaching, such as the Just War Theory, the Pontiff has a duty to correct those that abuse the teaching as Bush and his supporters did.

In which case, does it have the right to speak on the Syrian Civil War which is costing the lives of Christians in the place they were first called such, even if only to call for peace there?

No, the Church in fact does have a great deal to say on international issues, especially in the morality of acts such as war that affect the peace of all. It only needs to remain in good diplomatic standing with all belligerent parties in future wars.

en.wikipedia.org

Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) John-336509 said: She does seem to be smart, passionate, and confident. And she's even pretty too!

But the drive to San Antonio would take quite a bit of time!
John, John, John....BTW, thanks for humoring me, but if time is all you are worried about, then I should inform you that a plane ticket to San Antonio will cost you less than all the gas money you would spend driving down there, not to mention the one night lodging about half way...And you will be down there in like less than 3 hours...

I'm just trying to help!

Don't tell me you are the John Madden type (won't get on a plane). In that case, maybe she would be willing to meet half way?

Surely, the young lady has written to you privately? What does she say? Ok, ok, no need to know here...
Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: You don't think war is a moral issue in which the Church can speak? ...
...

No, the Church in fact does have a great deal to say on international issues, especially in the morality of acts such as war that affect the peace of all....

You're getting fast and lose with your phrasing here.

Just because the Church "has a great deal to say" does not mean that every word of it (or depending on what is being said, any word of it) infallible or binding.

Generically war is certainly a moral issue on which the Church can speak. But by no stretch of the imagination does the authority to promulgate a theory on just war equate into an ability to gather and analyze political/military intelligence that is any more valid than that gathered or analyzed by any other human institution.

So even though it would seem that Pope John Paul II did in fact do a better job of anticipating the hostilities that would erupt between the sections of Iraqi society than the Bush administration, that is a tribute to his human intelligence, not a manifestation of divine revelation.

The morality of going to war in Iraq hinged entirely on whether one estimated the evils of allowing Saddam to continue in power were less or greater than the evils of removing him by force. The estimation of "how many people are going to be killed in scenario X and how many are going to be killed in scenario Y" is NOT one where the Church has any inherent ability beyond that of any other human organization similarly situated.

The Popes' opinions of the Iraq war were their personal opinions. Certainly their opinions are worth listening to, but they were not infallible utterances.
Jun 2nd 2013 new
(quote) John-971967 said: John, John, John....BTW, thanks for humoring me, but if time is all you are worried about, then I should inform you that a plane ticket to San Antonio will cost you less than all the gas money you would spend driving down there, not to mention the one night lodging about half way...And you will be down there in like less than 3 hours...

I'm just trying to help!

Don't tell me you are the John Madden type (won't get on a plane). In that case, maybe she would be willing to meet half way?

Surely, the young lady has written to you privately? What does she say? Ok, ok, no need to know here...
wink

Oh, I spend plenty of time on planes! No worries about that.
Jun 3rd 2013 new
(quote) John-336509 said:

Oh, I spend plenty of time on planes! No worries about that.
Well there you go!

Rebecca? Will you meet John from Seattle?

I think it's my time to step away from this now...
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