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A place to learn, mingle, and share

Discussion related to living as a Catholic in the single state of life. As long as a topic is being discussed from the perspective of a single Catholic then it will be on-topic.

Tobias and Sarah's story is from the Book of Tobit, and his journey is guided by Saint Raphael.
Learn More: Tobias & Sarah as led by Saint Raphael

Aug 24th 2013 new
I wanted to say that I am active on a Christian site (non-denominational) for singles and I too find that CM is unique in the sense that men are more deliberate here in their goals, which is super attractive. And, I may be making a judgement here, but the men here seem more pure and orthodox in their approach to Christianity as a whole. For example, there will be a guy on this other Christian singles' site that has as his profile name: "lookin4goodtimes". (The members do not post real names.)

Also, I think Jim has a good point in regards to meeting people in our local communities. Meetup.com is a good resource for that, and they have at times local Catholic groups too. Philadelphia boasts a few.
As a side note, I wanted to say I've dated secular men at times in my life and I've found that although there are ideological differences, they can have similar goals in terms of dating styles with Catholics. Over a year ago I dated a man in my community who also believed it was not wholesome to use your date for sex.


Aug 24th 2013 new
I wanted to add that the reason I mention secular men, is that I do not give up all hope on them. If indeed God's ways are mysterious, then I do not exclude all possibilities. Meanwhile, I focus the locus of my energy with Catholics.
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Sara-979131 said: I wanted to add that the reason I mention secular men, is that I do not give up all hope on them. If indeed God's ways are mysterious, then I do not exclude all possibilities. Meanwhile, I focus the locus of my energy with Catholics.
very nicely said Sara.. we are God's instruments.. which is a GREAT thing. biggrin Praying
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Jeff-406043 said: And isn't it wrong to discuss other CM members on the forums? Even if they may not be mentioned specifically, but referred to? Just sayin'.
thank you for pointing that out. I am going to start monitoring Posts that include words like "all you", "why do the "men/women...etc".. Generalizations do not add to the discussion but often create defensiveness which then leads to off topic snippty comments! scratchchin Praying
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Dave-146273 said: If we want Threads to be productive, and where the poster and comment can be respectful to one another, then comments like these would probably best be refrained from.
I've always said,,everyone has a right to express their opinion..even if it's disagreeable, but in doing so we should ask ourselves if what we're saying or how we're saying it is in the most Charitable and un-selfserving way.
It was meant to point out a problem in our society that is at epidemic proportions. That is, the propensity towards egalitarianistic, over-sexualized attitudes that lead to rampant utilitarianism and a lack of appreciation for how genders ought to be regarded. I'm sorry if you felt that was disrespectful, but I think really people are not understanding my point if you think that this is bashing a certain person.

I can see someone getting banned here for simply defending what has been repeated by the Popes even.
Your site is not immune to what is happening outside of it in the world.
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Dave-146273 said: If we want Threads to be productive, and where the poster and comment can be respectful to one another, then comments like these would probably best be refrained from.
I've always said,,everyone has a right to express their opinion..even if it's disagreeable, but in doing so we should ask ourselves if what we're saying or how we're saying it is in the most Charitable and un-selfserving way.
David, you took my words out of context from that very post:

"... men SHOULD see women as special for the fact that they can do and be something that men cannot:
MOTHERS, either or both physically and spiritually.

A man's attitude should be to protect and honor women in a way that is unique to their sex. Men don't need to be put on a pedestal. Women should be respected in that way because of their role in creation. The regard a woman should have for a man who is truly a gentleman is unique as well, but very different."

The fact is that men and women are affected to one degree or another by the society in which we live. Some see the errors and are not effected and/or consciously choose another route of response, and others embrace it, or at least, make friends with it as a dialectic to their Catholicism, whether consciously or not. Is this offensive that one should point this out? Right there is an example of why it ought to be pointed out.

If it was my delivery (due to the quotes around "prize") was such that Patrick it took to heart, for that and that alone I apologize. What I should have said was, "with all due respect, I find it absurd that a man should think he ought to be pursued by a woman as if he were a 'prize' to be won." That would have gotten across the same point, but would have not looked like sarcasm when it was meant to tread lightly. Then someone else could come out and say (out of the sin of rash judgment) that this is due to my experience here, rather than give me the benefit that this is based on my traditional values as a Catholic.

That is not to say that every man who pursues a woman, opens doors, buys flowers, etc. is a good man, or that every docile woman is a good and honorable woman, but I mean only to point out that one defect by egalitarianism that is popular today in society in general. I make a big deal about it because, whether or not anyone agrees, we are all effected by the popularity of the internet, which, by the way, happens to inadvertently foster some other errant philosophies (e.g. Utilitarianism), mainly because we aren't self-aware of these serious issues, and as a result we our quickly losing our standards as a culture. When that happens, our response tends to be, "Problem? I don't see any problem? Nope, no problem here except that people are attempting to point out that there is some sort of problem."

I did not grow up knowing about things like philosophy --- I mean, authentically Catholic philosophy --- until just the past 12 years, mainly. I still make mistakes, and yes, I can see how a better understanding of attitudes towards the roles of men and women, even simply in social settings, would have helped me personally tremendously. Unfortunately, those who are least interested in learning about things that are discussed in books like Ed Sri's "Men, Women and the Mystery of Love" (which is based on the late Blessed Pope John Paul II's "Love and Responsibility" --- a collection of early talks on how poor modern philosophies are adversely affecting society, the family, and relationships in general), are probably the same people who have the most to gain from learning about these epidemics of bad philosophy to which we are all either infected or at least if only at some points in our life, greatly effected.
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Sara-979131 said: I wanted to add that the reason I mention secular men, is that I do not give up all hope on them. If indeed God's ways are mysterious, then I do not exclude all possibilities. Meanwhile, I focus the locus of my energy with Catholics.
cookie hersheyskiss wave hug Praying
Aug 24th 2013 new
Any woman who thinks of herself as a prize is an instant turn off for any decent man. No man with self respect likes to deal with a diva. As soon as a woman demands a pedastool you should be outta there, quick. And if any man puts you on the pedastool you should be weary. He's either got no backbone or a hidden agenda. Male and Female are both on equal footing - the magic happens when both see each other as the prize.

Imagine Mary thinking of herself as a prize? No. It's not a Catholic thought. Having high standards morally and personally is good. As is being detached in the spiritual sense (enough to discern but not so much that you are cut off emotionally). Being a diva who demands to be fought for and thought of as a queen simply for being born female is neo-feminist propaganda under the guise of a promotion of traditional chivalry and courtship.

Ever noticed how a lot of women with seemingly the highest standards end up with terrible husbands? That's because they've either settled with a loser who whiteknighted them or they got caught in the trap of a smooth talker who had a hidden secret/agenda. I've seen it again and again. The down to earth girls who just want a good man and don't play diva games are the ones who end up alright (secular or Catholic). This 'prize' stuff is passive-aggressive and usually a very forced and strained dating game.

Again, seen it a thousand times. It's a huge thing in the conservative/traditionalist world where a lot of girls are taught that men need to kneel before them and beg for to be their spouse because they've been brought up as angels and appear to know what it means to be a good wife. But in fact, they're often incredibly naive about it all and have a warped sense of the chemistry/relationship between men and women; between husband and wife. Catholic or not, diva types tend to poison their own well because the normal part of them wants a strong man, the Catholic part wants to be humble, but the diva part is attracting the weaklings and men who fulfill her every desire to be the 'queen'. Most young women snap out of this quickly once they realize that nobody wants to marry a diva or some of the men so far haven't been the cream of the crop (which is what they aim for but paradoxically never really reach).

Fight for the woman you love, sure. Slay the baddies and climb up her hair to get into the tower to be the prince charming. But if she's hiring mercenaries to test you and refuses to let down her hair because she just got it styled all to make it more of a challenge well... there are better women out there.

Being a good Catholic gentleman is not about being a puppy to a woman. Men and women were created equal but different. Complementary is what it's about. Advocating 'prize' stuff flips that around. Men can be Fathers. Woman can be Mothers. There is no Jesus without Mary; but Mary isn't going around telling everyone about it. Good Catholic men treat all women with respect, dignity, charity and kindness. If you're interested in someone, you just add in a little flirting and (appropriate) affection.

Being a strong masculine man with honor is not about being a flimsy and flowery charmer. Charm is a good thing; but allowing a woman to make herself out to be a prize makes your charm an end in itself rather than a means to an end (and good charm is a means, but it's not empty or meaningless).

It's great to treat your girlfriend or wife as special. That's a no brainer. It's one of the things I most look forward to when I am married - spoiling my wife (and, one day, kids please God!). But there's an intuitive kind of feeling you register between a woman who is genuinely happy and surprised with it, and who will reciprocate, and a woman who expects it and is waiting for the next round so that she can keep check on how well you're doing in terms of impressing her and flattering her elevated sense of self worth.

Don't ever idolize or idealize a woman (which is what this 'prize' stuff wants you to do).
No prizes, no pedastools. Just simple, Catholic courtship.

Pax to the max.
Aug 24th 2013 new
Tom,
How did you become so wise at such a young age? If my nieces weren't currently dating I would be sending them your way.
Aug 24th 2013 new
(quote) Tom-975374 said: Any woman who thinks of herself as a prize is an instant turn off for any decent man. No man with self respect likes to deal with a diva. As soon as a woman demands a pedastool you should be outta there, quick. And if any man puts you on the pedastool you should be weary. He's either got no backbone or a hidden agenda. Male and Female are both on equal footing - the magic happens when both see each other as the prize.

Imagine Mary thinking of herself as a prize? No. It's not a Catholic thought. Having high standards morally and personally is good. As is being detached in the spiritual sense (enough to discern but not so much that you are cut off emotionally). Being a diva who demands to be fought for and thought of as a queen simply for being born female is neo-feminist propaganda under the guise of a promotion of traditional chivalry and courtship.

Ever noticed how a lot of women with seemingly the highest standards end up with terrible husbands? That's because they've either settled with a loser who whiteknighted them or they got caught in the trap of a smooth talker who had a hidden secret/agenda. I've seen it again and again. The down to earth girls who just want a good man and don't play diva games are the ones who end up alright (secular or Catholic). This 'prize' stuff is passive-aggressive and usually a very forced and strained dating game.

Pax to the max.
Tom, you've made a lot of assumptions here. What I was saying was NOT that women ought to be divas, because that is NOT respectful of God or our neighbor out of love of God.

And the Blessed Mother was and is the most humble of all creatures because she knew her dignity in the light of God, "My soul MAGNIFIES the LORD, and spirit rejoices in God my savior........for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.Because he that is mighty,hath done great things to me;and holy is his name." Was the Blessed Mother being a "diva"? Of course, not, and I know you didn't mean that, but she is put on a pedestal by God, and to think that is wrong is a wrong understanding of God and divine truths.


It is true that there are sweet-talkers and players, but they catch all kinds in their nets... the virtuous and those who are lacking virtue, and those that attempt to toe the line. And there are, likewise, women who use their traps of immodest dress and behavior, or even the semblance of virtues, like pretending to be a good friend when they have expectations that are materialistic, for one example (another form of the error of utilitarianism). But that does not mean we ought to all lower our standards when it comes to desiring to marry someone with whom we are evenly yoked, who is God-fearing and loves the Church in all her teachings, both in divine law AND as according to natural moral law.


The Church teaches that men and women are not equal in the sense of sameness or their roles. Egalitarianism is not defended by the Church by its teachings, but only by those off the rails, so we can get confused. It is actually condemned as heretical, and it also leads to social ills. Our disagreement on this, however, may be perhaps only as the result of linguistic misconstructions. There is an equality in the strict sense of the dignity of being persons, but not in gender roles as these are based on intrinsic differences according to each gender's physical and emotional make up. This is more than our dignity of simply being (human) persons, but this deals with our personal dignity. Women, for instance, have a personal dignity which is differentiated from that of a man's personal dignity. To say that personal dignity (not merely the dignity of being a person) is equal to each gender, is disregarding the teachings of the Church on this which say otherwise. I can go into this in further detail, if you like, but in another thread. I recommend you do some reading on this, if your meaning is that personal dignity of women is the same to that of the personal dignity of men.



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