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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

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SSPX and Re.: Tangents

Dec 16th 2013 new
Since Paul took the liberty of detracting against me in his summary of the last SSPX thread (I thought others had disagreed with you, Paul, so why are you always only addressing me?), I thought I ought to write in my defense, as I still have a subscription for a little while longer (I just don't intend on renewing any time soon).

I did respond to what the Summorum Pontificum says, but when I stated that this wasn't really applicable to the SSPX and why (the SSPX was created to only provide the traditional Mass, so this was a shell game by those who introduced this into the conversation), I was retorted, "Where's that in the SP?" The SP has nothing to do with the discussions between the SSPX and the Vatican anyway.

I noticed also that Paul, you like to attack me publicly. SO I'm calling you on it, once gain. Jerry, I realize you too have Moderator authority, but both of you guys will ask a question to try to challenge someone who doesn't agree with you, and when they do, you instantly change the subject --- even to a tangent, and claim others are getting off track. Then you get in the last word and lock the thread.

And it's funny, because there is a thread in another forum here, "Two Truths and a Lie", because I've seen that game played here by someone whose name i won't mention. It's not ok to say a few truths, and then wrongly accuse that if someone disagrees with something you've said as a conclusion, they disagree with all of your premises, when in reality, they disagree with the premises that are just not true and wishful thinking by a biased person. In my experience, there has been more abuse of moderator power in the forums related to theology than there has been fair play in discussions related to either the traditional Mass or traditional doctrine.

That having been said, I wish you all peace --- not as the world gives, but as Christ, Truth Incarnate gives, whose teachings do not change with the times, and whose sacrifice in the Holy Mass deserves all the reverence and solemnity we can give him. wreath
Dec 16th 2013 new
Hi Lynea,
I was just briefly reading some of the end post, and caught the line you wrote about someone going to confession and receiving absolution, after leaving the confession he dropped over and died, you said he went directly to heaven,
I want to bring out, that this is not true. Everybody goes first to purgatory, whether they are free of their sins or not, The person who was reconciled with Jesus, after he died, he went to purgatory. You must first be purified before entering into heaven, that includes everybody,



Dec 16th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Hi Lynea,
I was just briefly reading some of the end post, and caught the line you wrote about someone going to confession and receiving absolution, after leaving the confession he dropped over and died, you said he went directly to heaven,
I want to bring out, that this is not true. Everybody goes first to purgatory, whether they are free of their sins or not, The person who was reconciled with Jesus, after he died, he went to purgatory. You must first be purified before entering into heaven, that includes everybody,



Cindy, I have no idea what post you are referring to. I never said there is no purgatory --- not even close. I did find, "Tom, the Sacrament of Confession/Penance absolves someone from the sins they've committed (with valid matter and form) --- not their disordered disposition. It does not make someone a saint. For instance, say you go to Confession and die as you are walking out. When you die, and you are in a state of grace, you will get to Heaven, but if you still have disordered habits, those will first bring you to Purgatory, until the disorder is purged. "

That's a lot different from what you are accusing me of having written.

However, it is possible for some to go straight to Heaven. These are known as SAINTS, who do not have any sin, and if there was any restitution to be made for absolved sins it had already been made in this life, and they do not have any disorders of the will (a.k.a. vice). Saints do not reach the level of saintly sanctity by accident, but it is their response to God's grace that they are rewarded with going straight to heaven.

I think i might have said in another thread (Not the SSPX) a hypothetic example of a man who died and went to Heaven, but even then i added that he first went to Purgatory (he was not a saint but died in a state of grace).

If you've my posts, you would see that I am a big proponent of Catholic doctrine. I'm afraid you've misread one of my posts and jumped the gun here.
Dec 16th 2013 new
I always like what you have to say and don't understand why you get picked on either. Keep saying the truth, thats our job. At least your posts don't get deleted like some of mine do. God bless and have a nice day
Dec 16th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Hi Lynea,
I was just briefly reading some of the end post, and caught the line you wrote about someone going to confession and receiving absolution, after leaving the confession he dropped over and died, you said he went directly to heaven,
I want to bring out, that this is not true. Everybody goes first to purgatory, whether they are free of their sins or not, The person who was reconciled with Jesus, after he died, he went to purgatory. You must first be purified before entering into heaven, that includes everybody,



Unfortunately, it does not include everybody.

One could argued that most of us will spend time in purgatory, assuming we are in a state of grace at death. But a lot of people will not and will go directly to heaven.

The Church has never taught, and still doesn',t that everyone will go to purgatory before heaven.
Dec 16th 2013 new
(quote) Cindy-534370 said: Hi Lynea,
I was just briefly reading some of the end post, and caught the line you wrote about someone going to confession and receiving absolution, after leaving the confession he dropped over and died, you said he went directly to heaven,
I want to bring out, that this is not true. Everybody goes first to purgatory, whether they are free of their sins or not, The person who was reconciled with Jesus, after he died, he went to purgatory. You must first be purified before entering into heaven, that includes everybody,



Only God knows what the state of grace at the hour of death is of a person.

If the person was truly sorry for his sins and got them ALL absolved and crocked, I would say he passed purgatory and went straight to heaven with his maker:) The beautiful gift of confession!
Dec 16th 2013 new
Groups such as the SSPX find a following because of the mindset of many a Church leader. I remember having read one newspaper article from 1965 or 66 in which it was reported that participants at a Liturgical Conference meeting laughed at people outside the meeting place who were protesting against changes to the Mass. This is how complaints are handled all too often in the Catholic Church. The "reforms" were implemented in typical autocratic fashion. Contrary to what many members of the hierarchy believed and probably still believe, laymen are not robots who can be programmed to follow whatever a Church leader wants.

Obey the will of the Council (as interpreted by an expert theologian), the will of the bishop, priest, mother superior, and so forth. Submit your minds to your superior. That's how too many in the Church think. In other words, don't think.

Dec 16th 2013 new
(quote) Cathy-564420 said: Only God knows what the state of grace at the hour of death is of a person.

If the person was truly sorry for his sins and got them ALL absolved and crocked, I would say he passed purgatory and went straight to heaven with his maker:) The beautiful gift of confession!

Indeed!

Dec 16th 2013 new
I will miss reading your excellent posts after you leave Lynea. wave I too will be joining you when my subscription expires in late January,(after almost 13 years).
Dec 16th 2013 new
(quote) Paul-866591 said: Unfortunately, it does not include everybody.

One could argued that most of us will spend time in purgatory, assuming we are in a state of grace at death. But a lot of people will not and will go directly to heaven.

The Church has never taught, and still doesn',t that everyone will go to purgatory before heaven.
Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I am telling you and others that is what I was taught. My last class in Morality, the priest who is very educated taught us this. He said everybody goes first to purgatory, the reason is they must first be purified, even the saintly ones. He said God is so holy that all must be cleansed and made pure before entering heaven. This is not what I thought of, but was taught this. He is a Roman Catholic priest here.
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