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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Is there a way to encourage blog articles to reflect more post-Vatican II church approaches to pastoral situations that everyone faces and Vatican II has acknowledged? Praise God that the Church now acknowledges that people's lives are complex and the emphasis is placed on pastoral care, acceptance and resolution. This is a direct result of Vatican II
It seems a majority of these articles approach issues as if there is only one answer and traditional thinking is the only way. I find it apalling that all the progress made by Vatican II doens't seem to get much affirmation by writers who very often seem to be quite young and inexperienced! As a main example, providing a pat answer to what divorced Catholics "should" be experiencing by someone who is not divorced just shows ignorance. How those of us who have been through the divorce grinder and what we face when we can look for relationships again is answered poorly by some of the know-it-all answers I've read from youngsters who have never been even close to the experience. There was even one simpering, holier-than-thou comment about the salvation status (won't be) of the unbaptized potential mate - since when is the salvation of souls decided by commentators???? Last I heard was that everyone is justified in hoping for salvation and every opportunity exists for all to be lead to salvation.
Those of us who lived before and after Vatican II's opening of the Church windows surely give thanks daily for the fresh air inflow. Anyone who is not a Catholic and browses these artlcles would never see that our Church accepts modern problems and can respond with modern and compassionate answers and pastoral care. I am blessed to be a parishioner at a Vatican II -mandate church where a LARGE part of the pastoral care outreach deals with marriage-divorce-anullment issues. While the basics don't change, the response and outlook has, writers. Where are your articles...........still in the past? I would recommend taking your keyboards out of the Latin missalette and walking with them through the open doors of the modern Church into the reality of what Catholics face.
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Dec 27th 2013 new
Marina, is the Post-Conciliar church a better place? Haven't we lost a lot of Liturgical correctness and sense of the sacred. There is no longer robust adherence to church teaching & morals? The watered-down Vatican II church has diluted the truth and made everything relative, with no absolute truths. This has led to rapid moral decline & contemporary permissiveness. Where is the appeal in that? The trend seems back towards Tradition.
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Dec 27th 2013 new
Marina, is the Post-Conciliar church a better place? Haven't we lost a lot of Liturgical correctness and sense of the sacred. There is no longer robust adherence to church teaching & morals? The watered-down Vatican II church has diluted the truth and made everything relative, with no absolute truths. This has led to rapid moral decline & contemporary permissiveness. Where is the appeal in that? The trend seems back towards Tradition.
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Dec 30th 2013 new
Mark:
Moving backwards has never been demonstrated to be "better" than going forward to meet modern challenges. Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. What is it about the past that we want to repeat? Slavery, social injustice, feudalism, lack of medical progress? When societies stop moving forward this is what they get.
Whenever I hear the word "correctness" in relation to the Liturgy, I think of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees for strict adherence to empty tradition. I also remember Latin Masses in front of bored or mystified parishioners who couldn't participate fully even if they wanted to. Do you? What is the sense of the sacred when people are dozing off, praying the rosary, discussing last night's movie in between snatches of explanation of where we are now in the Missalette? When the celebrant says to me in my native language, "This is My body........." I am transformed by the words. I don't need the sound of a traditional bell to remind me to pay attention.
My experience, as I mentioned, has been longer than yours and I've been pre-and post the changes brought in by John XXIII. Last time I looked, no "truths" were either violated or discarded by the modest modernization carried out by the Vatican II documents. In fact, today we are closer to true Liturgical correctness due to the dedication of scholars who really understand the language of the early Church and have truth as their motivation; no one is translating what he thinks we should hear, according to his opinion of what Christ should have said and what the translator wanted Him to say. AND, we can hear it in a language we understand anywhere in the world. Moral decline stays pretty much the same - consider the Dark Ages period of history and compare it with modern times- war, conquest, murder, and destruction did not emerge full-grown from the forhead of modern times. It's obvious we are no longer taught history. Men will always allow evil to overcome them at some point; that's why we have been redeemed.
I wonder, often, what "truths" Traditionalists are afraid of losing........... "permissiveness" is usually the backlash of injustice or indifference; that's how we as imperfect beings react. Those who want to see better behavior should behave better. I don't attend Mass and remain a practicing Catholic due to "appeal" and the kind of fundamentalism I see lately should scare everyone. It sure scares me. How appalling to contemplate the unthinkable; a stagnant faith proclaimed in a dead language to the uncomprehending . Can anyone in his or her right mind think this is what Christ wants for His living Church? I'll bet the Hebrew forefathers considered Christianity to be "watered down" - what do you mean we don't stone offenders to death any more?? Tradition.........
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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Marina-1024960 said: Mark:
Moving backwards has never been demonstrated to be "better" than going forward to meet modern challenges. Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. What is it about the past that we want to repeat? Slavery, social injustice, feudalism, lack of medical progress? When societies stop moving forward this is what they get.
Whenever I hear the word "correctness" in relation to the Liturgy, I think of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees for strict adherence to empty tradition. I also remember Latin Masses in front of bored or mystified parishioners who couldn't participate fully even if they wanted to. Do you? What is the sense of the sacred when people are dozing off, praying the rosary, discussing last night's movie in between snatches of explanation of where we are now in the Missalette? When the celebrant says to me in my native language, "This is My body........." I am transformed by the words. I don't need the sound of a traditional bell to remind me to pay attention.
My experience, as I mentioned, has been longer than yours and I've been pre-and post the changes brought in by John XXIII. Last time I looked, no "truths" were either violated or discarded by the modest modernization carried out by the Vatican II documents. In fact, today we are closer to true Liturgical correctness due to the dedication of scholars who really understand the language of the early Church and have truth as their motivation; no one is translating what he thinks we should hear, according to his opinion of what Christ should have said and what the translator wanted Him to say. AND, we can hear it in a language we understand anywhere in the world. Moral decline stays pretty much the same - consider the Dark Ages period of history and compare it with modern times- war, conquest, murder, and destruction did not emerge full-grown from the forhead of modern times. It's obvious we are no longer taught history. Men will always allow evil to overcome them at some point; that's why we have been redeemed.
I wonder, often, what "truths" Traditionalists are afraid of losing........... "permissiveness" is usually the backlash of injustice or indifference; that's how we as imperfect beings react. Those who want to see better behavior should behave better. I don't attend Mass and remain a practicing Catholic due to "appeal" and the kind of fundamentalism I see lately should scare everyone. It sure scares me. How appalling to contemplate the unthinkable; a stagnant faith proclaimed in a dead language to the uncomprehending . Can anyone in his or her right mind think this is what Christ wants for His living Church? I'll bet the Hebrew forefathers considered Christianity to be "watered down" - what do you mean we don't stone offenders to death any more?? Tradition.........
I do consider the FSSP part of the living church, along with the Latin, Eastern, and other rites of the Church.

The Faith proclaimed in Latin is not "uncomprehending" simply because it is spoken in a "dead" language that happens to be the base for most languages in Western Europe including ours! Since it is not spoken in the marketplace, Latin is not subject to the changes of language and meaning over time that occurs in English. If anything, there is a deeper connection between the prayers, readings and antiphons in any particular EF mass than in even the OF mass said with all the option of sacredness followed (which is a rare sight indeed, sadly).

Far from "fundamentalism," Traditional Catholicism dedicates itself to preserving all the Church has always taught from the time of the Apostles to today. We do not believe that simply because of the date on the calendar, certain disciplines or rites of sacredness should be set aside.

If you say that it isn't the calendar that demands "evolution," but the modern mind, I would answer by saying that doing so would be the biggest mistake. The modern mind needs a witness to the truth, and precisely that the truth does not evolve into a lie, or into something else entirely.

Let the Modernists have an evolving faith, but I will keep the True one which filled churches, converted nations, cared for the poor and the sick, called out to the world to seek peace, and provided the way to save our world that has become sick near unto death with Modernity.

If you call that "fundamentalist," that's fine by me!


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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Steven-706921 said: If you say that it isn't the calendar that demands "evolution," but the modern mind, I would answer by saying that doing so would be the biggest mistake. The modern mind needs a witness to the truth, and precisely that the truth does not evolve into a lie, or into something else entirely.
Put another way, Traditional Catholicism believes that the way to convert the modern mind is not to show it evolution. Modern man is taught that everything evolves, and expects to see it in everything from morals to societies, from politics to street lamps.

Modern man sees nothing but evolution; the best way to convert him is by showing him Eternity!
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Dec 30th 2013 new
Marina,

"I also remember Latin Masses in front of bored or mystified parishioners who couldn't participate fully even if they wanted to. Do you? What is the sense of the sacred when people are dozing off, praying the rosary, discussing last night's movie in between snatches of explanation of where we are now in the Missalette? When the celebrant says to me in my native language, "This is My body........." I am transformed by the words. I don't need the sound of a traditional bell to remind me to pay attention. "

I have to differ with your opinion for the above quote and the modern views you have written about. I tend different masses for different reasons and I prefer the TLM. When I was a little girl the TLM was said until I was 7 years old in my Parish. And I do remember it. And now when I attend the TLM, sometimes I use a missel and sometimes I do not. I have never participated or felt more close to Jesus and His mass as I do now. One may follow the meaning right along with the priest. I have seen more of what you describe above in the non TLM masses I attend. In the TLM masses there is more quiet reflection, reverence and respect of the parishioners then at the post Vatican II masses I attend. It is God's will not ours how to conduct mass. And there are certain parts of the mass that are to be shared with God and the priest only and not include the congregation directly . We need to respect God's wishes, after all He made the "rules". And the bell is rung on the alter for a reason, if we are dosing or fading off into our own thoughts or even in thoughts and prayer of Jesus, we are reminded that the transubstantiation is happening and to pay attention and respect it. You may not need it but most of the rest of us do. And it is up to Jesus to nudge us if need be. In my parish we have priests that do embrace the problems and issues of the modern world whole heartedly as they can. And they are traditional priests that are bringing back the sacred. The problems we are all having are dealt with beautifully, perhaps you need to find a parish that will. God bless you. theheart rose

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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Marina-1024960 said: Mark:
Moving backwards has never been demonstrated to be "better" than going forward to meet modern challenges. Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. What is it about the past that we want to repeat? Slavery, social injustice, feudalism, lack of medical progress? When societies stop moving forward this is what they get.
Whenever I hear the word "correctness" in relation to the Liturgy, I think of Christ's condemnation of the Pharisees for strict adherence to empty tradition. I also remember Latin Masses in front of bored or mystified parishioners who couldn't participate fully even if they wanted to. Do you? What is the sense of the sacred when people are dozing off, praying the rosary, discussing last night's movie in between snatches of explanation of where we are now in the Missalette? When the celebrant says to me in my native language, "This is My body........." I am transformed by the words. I don't need the sound of a traditional bell to remind me to pay attention.
My experience, as I mentioned, has been longer than yours and I've been pre-and post the changes brought in by John XXIII. Last time I looked, no "truths" were either violated or discarded by the modest modernization carried out by the Vatican II documents. In fact, today we are closer to true Liturgical correctness due to the dedication of scholars who really understand the language of the early Church and have truth as their motivation; no one is translating what he thinks we should hear, according to his opinion of what Christ should have said and what the translator wanted Him to say. AND, we can hear it in a language we understand anywhere in the world. Moral decline stays pretty much the same - consider the Dark Ages period of history and compare it with modern times- war, conquest, murder, and destruction did not emerge full-grown from the forhead of modern times. It's obvious we are no longer taught history. Men will always allow evil to overcome them at some point; that's why we have been redeemed.
I wonder, often, what "truths" Traditionalists are afraid of losing........... "permissiveness" is usually the backlash of injustice or indifference; that's how we as imperfect beings react. Those who want to see better behavior should behave better. I don't attend Mass and remain a practicing Catholic due to "appeal" and the kind of fundamentalism I see lately should scare everyone. It sure scares me. How appalling to contemplate the unthinkable; a stagnant faith proclaimed in a dead language to the uncomprehending . Can anyone in his or her right mind think this is what Christ wants for His living Church? I'll bet the Hebrew forefathers considered Christianity to be "watered down" - what do you mean we don't stone offenders to death any more?? Tradition.........
Vatican ll has not and can not change anything that the Church has defined as doctrine.Sorry ,but you are still bound by EVERYTHING from the past that the Church has declared.Much of what has been proposed as going forward,has been done by a bunch of Hippie liberal nut cases in the Church.Nothing in the Church since Vatican ll has made the Church better.More annulments.Oh sure there are more.How many areare really valid.Many are bad anullments.The people are not to blame though.The Priests on the Tribunal will have to answer to God for EVERY decision they made.Right now,the Church is a liberals dream.It won't last forever.God will set things right.When,it's anybodys guess.Eventually all this garbage in the name of Vatican ll that has been passed off as from the Council will disappear.I hope I live to see it.Before that time there will be a decisive battle,against the true sons of the Catholic Church,and the usurper(imposters).
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Dec 30th 2013 new
(quote) Jane-933948 said: Marina,

"I also remember Latin Masses in front of bored or mystified parishioners who couldn't participate fully even if they wanted to. Do you? What is the sense of the sacred when people are dozing off, praying the rosary, discussing last night's movie in between snatches of explanation of where we are now in the Missalette? When the celebrant says to me in my native language, "This is My body........." I am transformed by the words. I don't need the sound of a traditional bell to remind me to pay attention. "

I have to differ with your opinion for the above quote and the modern views you have written about. I tend different masses for different reasons and I prefer the TLM. When I was a little girl the TLM was said until I was 7 years old in my Parish. And I do remember it. And now when I attend the TLM, sometimes I use a missel and sometimes I do not. I have never participated or felt more close to Jesus and His mass as I do now. One may follow the meaning right along with the priest. I have seen more of what you describe above in the non TLM masses I attend. In the TLM masses there is more quiet reflection, reverence and respect of the parishioners then at the post Vatican II masses I attend. It is God's will not ours how to conduct mass. And there are certain parts of the mass that are to be shared with God and the priest only and not include the congregation directly . We need to respect God's wishes, after all He made the "rules". And the bell is rung on the alter for a reason, if we are dosing or fading off into our own thoughts or even in thoughts and prayer of Jesus, we are reminded that the transubstantiation is happening and to pay attention and respect it. You may not need it but most of the rest of us do. And it is up to Jesus to nudge us if need be. In my parish we have priests that do embrace the problems and issues of the modern world whole heartedly as they can. And they are traditional priests that are bringing back the sacred. The problems we are all having are dealt with beautifully, perhaps you need to find a parish that will. God bless you.

Maybe I don't know what the pre-VII parish life was like on Sunday. I only know my own parish now, and the OF masses I've seen; and there are problems in the later too.

However, whatever issue were in the performance of the EF in those days did not require the total do-over of the Mass of Paul VI; neither did Sacrosanctum Concilium call for it.
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Dec 30th 2013 new

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