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This room is for general discussion that doesn't specifically fit into one of the other CatholicMatch rooms. Topics should not be overly serious as this is to be more of a "cafe setting."

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Mar 30th 2014 new
There are only two groups of people in this world who are totally consistent in ideas of morality of dress for women: the Taliban, who believe all women should be totally covered up except when at home, and nudists.

Everybody else is trying to yoke unequals of logic.

Joan, you're a woman. You wear a skirt, let's say, with some calf showing, maybe even a knee, and shoes with some heel which helps (whether you like it or not) accentuate the shape of your calves? The Taliban would say that you're dressed like a prostitute. How would you defend your intellectual position?

'Modesty' is a cultural (ie. a human) made-up concept.

And as for men's 'modesty', the situation is even more subjective.
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Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: There are only two groups of people in this world who are totally consistent in ideas of morality of dress for women: the Taliban, who believe all women should be totally covered up except when at home, and nudists.

Everybody else is trying to yoke unequals of logic.

Joan, you're a woman. You wear a skirt, let's say, with some calf showing, maybe even a knee, and shoes with some heel which helps (whether you like it or not) accentuate the shape of your calves? The Taliban would say that you're dressed like a prostitute. How would you defend your intellectual position?

'Modesty' is a cultural (ie. a human) made-up concept.

And as for men's 'modesty', the situation is even more subjective.
Did you watch the video? It is an hour long. Please watch the video before you respond. THANKS
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Mar 30th 2014 new
I will, but I don't need to watch all of it to know that the modest dresses and posters displayed in the first few minutes are not what the Taliban would consider modest. So my question still stands, even before I can watch the full video, although I am listening to it as I type, and the talk is about short shorts and tight clothing ... which is not what those pictures are ....

The question is still valid, as at right now.

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Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Joan-529855 said: Did you watch the video? It is an hour long. Please watch the video before you respond. THANKS
Then this is my "notice" that I will respond in a day or two... wink
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Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: There are only two groups of people in this world who are totally consistent in ideas of morality of dress for women: the Taliban, who believe all women should be totally covered up except when at home, and nudists.

Everybody else is trying to yoke unequals of logic.

Joan, you're a woman. You wear a skirt, let's say, with some calf showing, maybe even a knee, and shoes with some heel which helps (whether you like it or not) accentuate the shape of your calves? The Taliban would say that you're dressed like a prostitute. How would you defend your intellectual position?

'Modesty' is a cultural (ie. a human) made-up concept.

And as for men's 'modesty', the situation is even more subjective.
I have never met anyone from the Taliban, however I have met many Mormons. I lived across the street from the Mormon temple; over 50% of my neighborhood was Mormon. They have to abide by a "dress code" to enter the temple and their church buildings. Once married they also must adhere to a dress code at all times. Young men and women are being prepared for marriage from a very young age so they are made aware of the dress code even as a child. There is certainly nothing unhealthy about teaching our children about modestly. I am a public school teacher; I know what I am talking about.

I understand your desire to insist that only the Taliban and nudists are totally consistent in ideas of morality of dress for women, however you are not correct. I would not defend my intellectual position on modesty to a member of the Taliban because I am not a member of the Taliban.

Continue to convince yourself that "modesty" is a cultural made-up concept and see where it gets you. Satan loves company.
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Mar 30th 2014 new
Satan would love the yoking of unequals that says a skirt is fine as long as it reaches the knee.

Hello? Calves are not 'sexy'. They cannot interest the eyes of a man?

I'm listening to the video as I type, and the 'below-the-knee is OK' idea is the big standout problem already. Why are skirts not required to go to the ankle?

Logic, not superstition, is needed. Otherwise, these 'morality of female dressing' threads are always going to end inconclusively.
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Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: There are only two groups of people in this world who are totally consistent in ideas of morality of dress for women: the Taliban, who believe all women should be totally covered up except when at home, and nudists.

Everybody else is trying to yoke unequals of logic.

Joan, you're a woman. You wear a skirt, let's say, with some calf showing, maybe even a knee, and shoes with some heel which helps (whether you like it or not) accentuate the shape of your calves? The Taliban would say that you're dressed like a prostitute. How would you defend your intellectual position?

'Modesty' is a cultural (ie. a human) made-up concept.

And as for men's 'modesty', the situation is even more subjective.
Modesty is not a dress code, Roystan. It is a virtue taught us by natural reason and refined by Catholic religion.

St. Thomas Aquinas teaches us that modesty is the virtue by which weaker passions than those which are governed by the virtue of temperance are brought into moderation. Modesty governs both outward and inward actions therefore.

Dress codes are based upon this virtue, and will differ by region in material, color, adornment, etc., but not in standard: modesty.

In regard to modesty of dress, St. Thomas also teaches us:

'Although outward attire does not come from nature, it belongs to natural reason to moderate it; so that we are naturally inclined to be the recipients of the virtue that moderates outward raiment.'

...

'As regards the adornment of women, we must bear in mind the general statements made above (Article 1) concerning outward apparel, and also something special, namely that a woman's apparel may incite men to lust, according to Proverbs 7:10, "Behold a woman meeteth him in harlot's attire, prepared to deceive souls."

'Nevertheless a woman may use means to please her husband, lest through despising her he fall into adultery. Hence it is written (1 Corinthians 7:34) that the woman "that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband." Wherefore if a married woman adorn herself in order to please her husband she can do this without sin.

'But those women who have no husband nor wish to have one, or who are in a state of life inconsistent with marriage, cannot without sin desire to give lustful pleasure to those men who see them, because this is to incite them to sin. And if indeed they adorn themselves with this intention of provoking others to lust, they sin mortally; whereas if they do so from frivolity, or from vanity for the sake of ostentation, it is not always mortal, but sometimes venial. And the same applies to men in this respect. Hence Augustine says (Ep. ccxlv ad Possid.): "I do not wish you to be hasty in forbidding the wearing of gold or costly attire except in the case of those who being neither married nor wishful to marry, should think how they may please God: whereas the others think on the things of the world, either husbands how they may please their wives, or wives how they may please their husbands, except that it is unbecoming for women though married to uncover their hair, since the Apostle commands them to cover the head." Yet in this case some might be excused from sin, when they do this not through vanity but on account of some contrary custom: although such a custom is not to be commended.'

What natural reason and Catholic religion teach us regarding raiment, and modesty aids us in achieving, is not subjective. What the Taliban or nudists believe in this regard is really not germane to the discussion of modesty, except by giving possible examples of extreme violations of the virtue.


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Mar 30th 2014 new
Hi Joan-I haven't watched the video yet, however, since I started the last brouhaha, I thought I'd weigh in with what the catechism states on modesty. 2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity. 2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one's choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet. 2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies. 2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person. I thought this was rather eye opening after what shook out. I hope others find it insightful also! Thanks for the video, I'm looking forward to watching it!
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Mar 30th 2014 new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: There are only two groups of people in this world who are totally consistent in ideas of morality of dress for women: the Taliban, who believe all women should be totally covered up except when at home, and nudists.

Everybody else is trying to yoke unequals of logic.

Joan, you're a woman. You wear a skirt, let's say, with some calf showing, maybe even a knee, and shoes with some heel which helps (whether you like it or not) accentuate the shape of your calves? The Taliban would say that you're dressed like a prostitute. How would you defend your intellectual position?

'Modesty' is a cultural (ie. a human) made-up concept.

And as for men's 'modesty', the situation is even more subjective.
...and in the early 1900's or sumpin', ankles gave guys a thrill...I know some have something about toes...yuck but...hmmm....
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