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This room is for general discussion that doesn't specifically fit into one of the other CatholicMatch rooms. Topics should not be overly serious as this is to be more of a "cafe setting."

Saint Peter's Square was created so that more people could be in the presence of the Pope and was named after Saint Peter, one of Jesus's apostles.
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At her blog "The Thinking Housewife", Laura Wood reports:"The General Assembly of the Presybterian Church (U.S.A.) endorsed same-sex marriage this week, voting to allow ministers to perform any such marriage they believe the Holy Spirit calls them to perform. The June 19th letter by Ruling Elder Heath Rada announcing the decision is a study in passive-aggressive rhetoric and arrogant, modernist blasphemy". And she reproduces Rada's letter, which would have given his own Presbyterian forebears an infarction:

To congregations of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.):

Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Earlier today the 221st General Assembly (2014) of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) approved a recommendation from its Civil Union and Marriage Issues Committee allowing for pastoral discretion to perform any such marriage they believe the Holy Spirit calls them to perform, where legal by state law.

They also approved a recommendation to change language in the Book of Order to indicate that marriage involves a unique commitment between two people, traditionally a man and a woman.

Both decisions came with much thought, discussion and prayer, and clearly the entire body that is the PC(USA) will be interpreting these actions for some time.

Please know that the same triune God in whom we place our hope, faith and trust in is still in control, and that the Assemblys action today is the result of deep discernment to hear Gods voice and discern Gods will.

We concur with the feelings expressed by Teaching Elder Commissioner Jeffrey Bridgeman, moderator of the Civil Union and Marriage Issues Committee, during his presentation to the Assembly.

The apostle Paul tells us that ours is, in fact, the ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ, and he died for us so that we might be reconciled, that we might become reconcilers, Bridgeman said.

In this season of both happiness and sadness over the Assemblys decisions, we call on you to remember the overflowing grace and love God gifts us with, and to take seriously our charge to bestow the same grace and love on one another.

In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Ruling Elder Heath K. Rada

Moderator, 221st General Assembly



Jun 21st new
(quote) Paul-1049651 said:

At her blog "The Thinking Housewife", Laura Wood reports:"The General Assembly of the Presybterian Church (U.S.A.) endorsed same-sex marriage this week, voting to allow ministers to perform any such marriage they believe the Holy Spirit calls them to perform. The June 19th letter by Ruling Elder Heath Rada announcing the decision is a study in passive-aggressive rhetoric and arrogant, modernist blasphemy". And she reproduces Rada's letter, which would have given his own Presbyterian forebears an infarction:

To congregations of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.):

Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Earlier today the 221st General Assembly (2014) of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) approved a recommendation from its Civil Union and Marriage Issues Committee allowing for pastoral discretion to perform any such marriage they believe the Holy Spirit calls them to perform, where legal by state law.

They also approved a recommendation to change language in the Book of Order to indicate that marriage involves a unique commitment between two people, traditionally a man and a woman.

Both decisions came with much thought, discussion and prayer, and clearly the entire body that is the PC(USA) will be interpreting these actions for some time.

Please know that the same triune God in whom we place our hope, faith and trust in is still in control, and that the Assemblys action today is the result of deep discernment to hear Gods voice and discern Gods will.

We concur with the feelings expressed by Teaching Elder Commissioner Jeffrey Bridgeman, moderator of the Civil Union and Marriage Issues Committee, during his presentation to the Assembly.

The apostle Paul tells us that ours is, in fact, the ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ, and he died for us so that we might be reconciled, that we might become reconcilers, Bridgeman said.

In this season of both happiness and sadness over the Assemblys decisions, we call on you to remember the overflowing grace and love God gifts us with, and to take seriously our charge to bestow the same grace and love on one another.

In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Ruling Elder Heath K. Rada

Moderator, 221st General Assembly



They couldn't have quoted a more ironic and blessed authority to signal this blasphemous edict than St. Paul. Everybody loves parts of Paul's teaching, while junking other parts. The modern world is madly in love with 1 Corinthians 13: 4-8, (Love is kind, love is patient...) but it can't stand some parts of the same epistle, namely 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11:

"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God."

Sooner or later, in a more uncivilized time in the future, some expedient, relativistic thinker in the same vein is going to come along who says, "well, as long as we're junking parts of Paul, about charity, chastity, sacrifice, conversion and self-denial, why don't we just get the process over with and do away with all that love and brotherhood, and mercy stuff while we're at it?"

Jun 21st new
I quote Pope Francis' question: "Who am I to judge?" Three years ago The Presbyterian Church started ordaining gay clergy. And apparently after further "study and discernment to hear God's voice and discern his will", the majority of the voters in their General Assembly agreed that theirs is "the ministry of reconciliation." The denomination wants all to feel welcome and is now giving the pastors the option of performing same sex marriages. People of equally good conscience can differ. The Presbyterian Church is being inclusive; and again: "Who am I to judge?"
Jun 21st new
(quote) Carol-1007500 said: I quote Pope Francis' question: "Who am I to judge?" Three years ago The Presbyterian Church started ordaining gay clergy. And apparently after further "study and discernment to hear God's voice and discern his will", the majority of the voters in their General Assembly agreed that theirs is "the ministry of reconciliation." The denomination wants all to feel welcome and is now giving the pastors the option of performing same sex marriages. People of equally good conscience can differ. The Presbyterian Church is being inclusive; and again: "Who am I to judge?"

The Presbyterian Church and most other mainline Protestant denominations (United Methodist Church and Episcopal Church being a couple others) are desperately hemorrhaging numbers of congregants and splitting down the middle at a greater clip than the Catholic Church (for all the progressive vitriol about rigidity) sheds its own members, and so they put gay marriage up for a vote. What's next, baptism? Divorce?

For all their sanctimonious Bible baiting, and questions of "where's that in the Bible?" mainline Protestants have committed one of the most despicable sins against Holy Spirit. They've fractured the Body of Christ, continuing a process set in motion by Martin Luther. If the Presbyterian Church is anything like the Episcopal Church, this development will only worsen the shedding numbers.

So, in a way, your statement about inclusivity is actually ironic. For all its liberal inclusivity, the pie is actually shrinking.

Jun 21st new
(quote) Carol-1007500 said: I quote Pope Francis' question: "Who am I to judge?" Three years ago The Presbyterian Church started ordaining gay clergy. And apparently after further "study and discernment to hear God's voice and discern his will", the majority of the voters in their General Assembly agreed that theirs is "the ministry of reconciliation." The denomination wants all to feel welcome and is now giving the pastors the option of performing same sex marriages. People of equally good conscience can differ. The Presbyterian Church is being inclusive; and again: "Who am I to judge?"
Who are you to judge what?

Scripture itself tells us that marriage is between one man and one woman, and that sexual relations between members of the same sex,which it would seem to be reasonable to assume will be a component of the vast majority of same-sex "marriages", are an abomination, it it follows that attempting such "marriages" is outside the right moral order.

"To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls." (CCC 2032)
www.vatican.va

What the Presbyterian church has decreed is clearly opposed to these authoritative moral teachings, and thus be rejected. Just because they claim the voice they heard was God's doesn't make it so: Christ made it clear morality is not relativistic.



Jun 21st new
(quote) Devan-877827 said:

The Presbyterian Church and most other mainline Protestant denominations (United Methodist Church and Episcopal Church being a couple others) are desperately hemorrhaging numbers of congregants and splitting down the middle at a greater clip than the Catholic Church (for all the progressive vitriol about rigidity) sheds its own members, and so they put gay marriage up for a vote. What's next, baptism? Divorce?

For all their sanctimonious Bible baiting, and questions of "where's that in the Bible?" mainline Protestants have committed one of the most despicable sins against Holy Spirit. They've fractured the Body of Christ, continuing a process set in motion by Martin Luther. If the Presbyterian Church is anything like the Episcopal Church, this development will only worsen the shedding numbers.

So, in a way, your statement about inclusivity is actually ironic. For all its liberal inclusivity, the pie is actually shrinking.

Agreed, organized religion in the US is at an all time low. And to the extent that religion is an industry - no congregants, no church, no mission. Christianity is at an impasse. From an evolutionary theology perspective, a more unifying approach is needed to survive. monkey
Jun 21st new

www.thinkinghousewife.com

" The June 19th letter by Ruling Elder Heath Rada announcing the decision is a study in passive-aggressive rhetoric and arrogant, modernist blasphemy. According to Rada, a former Red Cross executive with a a twinkle in the eye, Christ died to make Presbyterians reconcilers.

" Please know that the same triune God in whom we place our hope, faith and trust in is still in control, and that the Assemblys action today is the result of deep discernment to hear Gods voice and discern Gods will.

"The Presbyterians have a creepy cult of niceness. The spiritual life is dead within them. Niceness is an agreeable substitute. Super Nice people dont say no to anyone who wants a wedding. In truth, this is not niceness, but self-love and cruelty. Liberals are cruel people with sugary-sweet smiles. In their niceness, they are masters of spiritual genocide."


Laura Wood uses interesting language: 'passive-aggressive', 'arrogant', 'creepy cult of niceness', 'the spiritual life is dead within them', 'cruel people with sugary-sweet smiles', 'masters of spiritual genocide'. To recall the Pope's description of insult being rooted in hatred, when is hyperbole justified and when does it become hatred?


Hyperbole is a valuable part of oratory and legislative debates are replete with it, but, of course, everybody knows that rough and tumble is part of the game of political discourse and the participants themselves accept this. But here we have religious discourse and where does it say that there is rough and tumble in religious discourse? When your brother or sister says that he or she prayed to The Source of Wisdom for ... wisdom ... but came away with a different wisdom than you would have expected him or her to have received, all you have is their word that they were sincere, and if you refuse to believe that they were sincere, you will have saddled yourself with an accusation of calumny which you will have to refute, an accusation which will be re-presented to you (in case you've forgotten about it) at your individual and general judgement.


Is truth on its own a defence to defamation, especially a truth which cannot definitively be proven by a laboratory experiment but only by debate over whether this interpretation of Scripture is as reasonable as that?


Now all of what Laura Wood impugns about the Presbyterians who support 'gay' marriage may be true but she offers no proof that those Presbyterians are anything more than conflicted Good Samaritans who have misinterpreted the Scriptures. To adapt Ronald Reagan's eleventh commandment that no Republican should speak ill of a fellow Republican, perhaps it should be the case that no child of Abraham should be snarky about another child of Abraham, because words are cheap, snark is easy and, at the end of the day, you still won't know the dynamics of how conscientiousness in two people baptised in the same Spirit can produce two differing results ---- which is by far the most interesting question to arise out of any religious controversy. How can two similar people be so different?

Jun 21st new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: Who are you to judge what?

Scripture itself tells us that marriage is between one man and one woman, and that sexual relations between members of the same sex,which it would seem to be reasonable to assume will be a component of the vast majority of same-sex "marriages", are an abomination, it it follows that attempting such "marriages" is outside the right moral order.

"To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls." (CCC 2032)
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P74.HTM

What the Presbyterian church has decreed is clearly opposed to these authoritative moral teachings, and thus be rejected. Just because they claim the voice they heard was God's doesn't make it so: Christ made it clear morality is not relativistic.



I am well aware of the Catholic position on same sex marriages. If the Presbyterian Church has a different interpretation, that is their right. If they agreed with Catholic views, they would embrace Catholicism.
Jun 21st new
(quote) Roystan-340472 said: Hyperbole is a valuable part of oratory and legislative debates are replete with it, but, of course, everybody knows that rough and tumble is part of the game of political discourse and the participants themselves accept this. But here we have religious discourse and where does it say that there is rough and tumble in religious discourse?
This is, if I may say so, one of your best posts. Just for clarity: I am by no means endorsing everything that Laura Wood writes (for one thing, she's a sedevacantist who believes the papal chair has been empty since 1958). But since I was acknowledging her as my source for the letter, it seemed reasonable, by way of introduction, to clarify her own attitude towards it. I also think the Presbyterians are wrong, but when I allow myself to give way to anger on the point I feel I'm the worse for it.
Jun 21st new
(quote) Paul-1049651 said:

At her blog "The Thinking Housewife", Laura Wood reports:"The General Assembly of the Presybterian Church (U.S.A.) endorsed same-sex marriage this week, voting to allow ministers to perform any such marriage they believe the Holy Spirit calls them to perform. The June 19th letter by Ruling Elder Heath Rada announcing the decision is a study in passive-aggressive rhetoric and arrogant, modernist blasphemy". And she reproduces Rada's letter, which would have given his own Presbyterian forebears an infarction:

To congregations of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.):

Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Earlier today the 221st General Assembly (2014) of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) approved a recommendation from its Civil Union and Marriage Issues Committee allowing for pastoral discretion to perform any such marriage they believe the Holy Spirit calls them to perform, where legal by state law.

They also approved a recommendation to change language in the Book of Order to indicate that marriage involves a unique commitment between two people, traditionally a man and a woman.

Both decisions came with much thought, discussion and prayer, and clearly the entire body that is the PC(USA) will be interpreting these actions for some time.

Please know that the same triune God in whom we place our hope, faith and trust in is still in control, and that the Assemblys action today is the result of deep discernment to hear Gods voice and discern Gods will.

We concur with the feelings expressed by Teaching Elder Commissioner Jeffrey Bridgeman, moderator of the Civil Union and Marriage Issues Committee, during his presentation to the Assembly.

The apostle Paul tells us that ours is, in fact, the ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ, and he died for us so that we might be reconciled, that we might become reconcilers, Bridgeman said.

In this season of both happiness and sadness over the Assemblys decisions, we call on you to remember the overflowing grace and love God gifts us with, and to take seriously our charge to bestow the same grace and love on one another.

In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Ruling Elder Heath K. Rada

Moderator, 221st General Assembly



This is "the small stuff." Don't sweat it, man.
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