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This room is for discussion related to learning about the faith (Catechetics), defense of the Faith (Apologetics), the Liturgy and canon law, motivated by a desire to grow closer to Christ or to bring someone else closer.

Saint Augustine of Hippo is considered on of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time and the Doctor of the Church.
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Jul 12th 2014 new
Hey Bernard~funny how I seemed to have run in to you again. I see that the "discussion" is locked and probably best. This site is not supposed to be a political arena. I have had many private messages from members who feel the same.

I didn't know where to post this article I found in my quest for understanding. On the issues of conscience and dissent...I think it's obvious that there is profound disagreement in the community about many moral issues. With respect to religious liberty, hasn't the Church always upheld the importance of conscience? and taught that individuals must follow their consciences even when they're wrong? Well, perceived to be wrong-and there are a plethora of areas hidden under the veil of moral conduct. For example, for a Catholic to disagree with what the Church teaches on abortion, he or she would need to have very clear reasons and convictions. It's also an area that I have struggled with myself because I was forced to...not for lack of "obedience."

I am in now way saying it's wise to "invite rebellion"...but as with my experience here in the forums, one may be tagged unfairly with their "scarlet letter" for questioning the official Church teachings. Questioning is not synonymous with being disloyal. To many here, there is a strong sense that "only those to be considered a 'good Catholic' need apply"...or participate.

That said I found this article, and the web-site, thought provoking. ~M

www.thecatholicthing.org
Jul 12th 2014 new
The article is "The Shame of the Catholic Sub-culture"
Jul 12th 2014 new
(quote) Michelle-1005641 said: Hey Bernard~funny how I seemed to have run in to you again. I see that the "discussion" is locked and probably best. This site is not supposed to be a political arena. I have had many private messages from members who feel the same.

I didn't know where to post this article I found in my quest for understanding. On the issues of conscience and dissent...I think it's obvious that there is profound disagreement in the community about many moral issues. With respect to religious liberty, hasn't the Church always upheld the importance of conscience? and taught that individuals must follow their consciences even when they're wrong? Well, perceived to be wrong-and there are a plethora of areas hidden under the veil of moral conduct. For example, for a Catholic to disagree with what the Church teaches on abortion, he or she would need to have very clear reasons and convictions. It's also an area that I have struggled with myself because I was forced to...not for lack of "obedience."

I am in now way saying it's wise to "invite rebellion"...but as with my experience here in the forums, one may be tagged unfairly with their "scarlet letter" for questioning the official Church teachings. Questioning is not synonymous with being disloyal. To many here, there is a strong sense that "only those to be considered a 'good Catholic' need apply"...or participate.

That said I found this article, and the web-site, thought provoking. ~M

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2014/the-shame-of-the-catholic-subculture.html
You have missed a few points regarding conscience:

First, we have a moral duty to properly form our consciences, which means to be in accord with Church teachings. When we don't understand or disagree with those teachings our obligation is to work toward understanding her teachings via prayer, study, fasting, etc. -- not to decide we're right and the Church is wrong.

While we are indeed morally obligated to follow a certain conscience, even one that is in error, there are several related things we must bear in mind:

(a) Just as we must follow a certain conscience, we must not act on an doubtful conscience. That is, if you're not sure if an act is moral or immoral, you must not commit that act.

(b) If out conscience is in error due to vincible ignorance (that is, that we had the opportunity to properly form it and failed to do so), then we are morally culpable for the improperly formed conscience.

(c) The conscience is a faculty of the intellect, not the emotions. This means that to act on our conscience is ultimately a rational decision based on fact, not an emotional response. When we act impulsively based on feelings or emotional responses, we are not acting based on our conscience (even if our conscience would move in the same direction).

(d) The demons tempt and attempt to lead us astray via our emotions and imagination, not the intellect. Those who are not in a state of grace are especially vulnerable to these influences.

While there may be profound disagreement within the CM community, and even within the membership of the Church at large, about certain moral issues, the Church's teachings on most of these is very clear. Morality is not determined by consensus: it doesn't matter if every CM member believes a falsehood. Nor does it matter what reasons and convictions they may have. Do you honestly believe anyone here has come up with a "justification" for abortion, contraception, same-sex acts, etc. that hasn't been proposed many times and rejected over the 2000 year history of the Church?


Jul 12th 2014 new
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry...let me just say this. I am not looking for your approval and secondly, I didn't "miss" the point. My points are well received by members who avoid the forums because of the attack dog mentality. Now, about self-righteousness...

Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner!

I will keep my dialogue open with God on this one...
Jul 13th 2014 new
(quote) Michelle-1005641 said: Jerry, Jerry, Jerry...let me just say this. I am not looking for your approval and secondly, I didn't "miss" the point. My points are well received by members who avoid the forums because of the attack dog mentality. Now, about self-righteousness...

Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner!

I will keep my dialogue open with God on this one...
What is important is whether your points are objectively correct (that is, consistent with the Church teachings), not what other people think of them.

Jul 13th 2014 new

There's nothing unorthodox about this article. It says that the orthodox should explain themselves better to those who are heterodox, not become heterodox themselves. It says that many Catholics lack knowledge of natural law, without knowledge of which it cannot be explained that the human body has something called a teleology which defines its purpose, which means that the things that a body can do do not define what the body should do.


If it is a scriptural truth that our bodies do not belong to us but to God, then, it's a reasonable theological extrapolation to hold that God's proxy on earth, the Church, can tell one how one is to use one's body.

Jul 13th 2014 new
(quote) Jerry-74383 said: What is important is whether your points are objectively correct (that is, consistent with the Church teachings), not what other people think of them.

Amen, Jerry! As G.K. Chesterton said, "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."

May God help us always oppose prideful error or intellectual laziness in pursuit of truth!
Jul 13th 2014 new

I do not fully understand the Mystery of the Holy Trinity,yet I accept it.Not because I am a robot that can't reason.It's a very complicated Mystery.Yet I Trust God and His Church,and I Will to accept it.
An eight year child has enough intelligence to understand the basics of the Faith,and to save their soul.Jesus said,we must become as Children.One must start their journey of Faith with the belief that the Catholic Church is the Church founded on Peter and the Apostles,by Jesus Christ,the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (Matt.16-v.18).If one believes/accepts that Jesus is God,and started a Church,the rest is just a matter of Trust.If one trusts,they will accept.It's really that simple.Individuals who do not understand the truths of the Church,or have questions,are under the obligation to seek answers.One who continually,doubts ,resists,and challenges the Church's teachings,has trust issues IMO.They don't trust God.At least not the One who revealed Himself to the World,and was made known to us through the Catholic Church.They only trust in a God/Jesus that they have made to their Image and likeness,and use him to give credibility to their position,and self made beliefs and interpretations.

Finally,we must have "Good Will" as the Angel said in the Gospel of St.Luke 2
Our "Good Will" is the chief component that is necessary for Trust,Faith,and Acceptance of Catholic Teaching.


ST. LUKE - Chapter 2

13 And suddenly there was with the Angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying:

14 Glory to God in the highest: and on earth, peace to men of good will.

Jul 13th 2014 new
(quote) Michael-1105113 said: Amen, Jerry! As G.K. Chesterton said, "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."

May God help us always oppose prideful error or intellectual laziness in pursuit of truth!
Gotta love G.K.! smile
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